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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello. As a Concealed Handgun License instructor I've noted that quite a few folks who go through the course and obtain their CHL simply do not carry. Some carry in their vehicle, but not on their person when perfectly lawful to do so.

I have never understood this.

Anyone have any ideas? I have a few but wanted to hear what others think.

Best.
 

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I've known folks to do this under the mindset of "Well, nothing's going to happen to me here, and certainly nothing's going to happen right now. After all, I've been here before, and it's perfectly safe."

Alas, in my work in the criminal arena I've often seen how things can go from "perfectly safe" to utter chaos in moments. :(

The mindset doesn't make sense to me. I feel that each of us has a duty to take care of ourselves and to assist in taking care of those who are weaker (I am not saying I feel such a duty should be governmentally mandated, but rather that ethics and morals compel it). Accordingly, one should always be as prepared as is reasonably convenient to protect oneself.

Handguns are reasonably convenient. If a person has a permit and s/he's in a place where carry is allowed, that person should be carrying.

It's like that old Norse poem, the Havamal says: Out in the fields a man should never be parted from his weapons. No one knows when a man in the open will have need of a spear.
 

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"It's too much trouble."

"Nothing's gonna happen."

"This ain't no war zone."

"I'm just going to the store."

"Who'd be out here this late?"

We can be deceived and we can deceive ourselves. It only takes 1 time to fail to carry and then who will extricate us from the predicament when trouble arrives? The Lord may, and then again He may not.

Regards.
 

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Mr. Camp,

Excellent subject. I was planning to address this in the book I'm writing and I believe I can compose the beginning of that chapter here. Why not? This board has been the start of so much.


"So you have your handgun permit. Why do you have it?

Did you get it because you don't want a backround check when you buy pistols? Or to hunt only? Do you feel you will never need it? Or, do you feel that a piece of paper will protect you?

You have a psychological precedent set in your mind. You've not carried your whole life. Your pistol is not a pair of pants. It takes concious thought to remember to wear it. It can be tough at first. However, if you are serious about defending yourself and your loved ones, you owe it to yourself to belt it on in the morning. If you are not serious about carrying, you have wasted your money on your permit.

Did you put it on and take it off again? They can be uncomfortable. It takes a lot of testing to find a rig that will work for you. Please refer to the chapters dealing with fit and function of handguns and their accessories, respectively.

I can understand, to a point at least, not carrying your pistol because you want to forego the backround check for firearms purposes. I can also understand hunting only. However, I cannot understand, nor can I tolerate, a person who cannot realize that yes, it can happen to you!

Again we go back to the psychological precedent. If you've never been attacked, you may assume that you never will be attacked. That is as flawed as me thinking that because I've never been hit on the head with a Frisbee, I'll never be hit on the head with a Frisbee. The chance is remote, granted. However, are you willing to stake your life, or worse, the lives of your loved ones, on a remote chance?

As for the feeling of power that a piece of paper may give you, I can only say this: It is not what a paper says we can do, but what we really can do. If a piece of paper says that you can hit the bullseye every time, you make a liar out of that paper by not having your weapon on you when you need it most. An assailant will not stop because you have that paper. As I write this I think back to a few days ago. I was out on the porch finishing a cigar when a known attack dog showed up. I didn't have my handgun- I had left it inside as I was only stepping out for a minute. The dog didn't care. Fortunately I had my jo staff leaning on the porch and I had the high ground. It ran, and I ran inside. I'll never do that again. It would not have been the dog's fault if it had mauled me; it would have been my own for not being able to adequately protect myself at a range longer than a small stick. Come to think of it, dogs like sticks and that may not have been the best solution. If you fall into this category, you owe it to yourself to change your mindset. The mindset you now carry is one of the most dangerous found among us as humans. Assume that it will happen to you. Become a bit paranoid if you must. Your life may depend on it."
Rough, I know. But it gives me a starting point for a chapter as well as covering most of my thoughts on this subject for a beginning CCW holder.

Josh <><
 

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A CCW is to some a matter of prestige and that is as far as it goes, get the permit and then show it around, but never carry the weapon, a fact that boggles my mind.

To others, it is a spur of the moment impulse and as the novelty wears off and they discover that carrying is not like they saw it on TV, uncomfortable, subject to travel restrictions (bars, gatherings etc) hard on clothes and furniture, can get expensive when belts, holsters and other sundry gear are factored in, etc, they quit.

Some allow others to sway thier thinking, "why do you need to carry that gun", "Do you think it is a war zone out there?" "Think of the people you could hurt, if you try to use it" "Think of the children".........

You have those who were persuaded to get thier permit, but do not get the continued positive reinforcement needed to become proficient and wholly comfortable with the idea and practice of CCW and stop carrying, because they lack confidence in themselves and thier abilities.

Some have picked an otherwise suitable weapon, just not for them and instead of going out at the first opportunity to trade it for something better, keep putting it off and eventually forget all about it in the day to day rush and bustle of life.

There are some other points, that have already been covered, so I won't rehash them.

If I had a dollar.............Well you know


Regards, Mueller
 
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The tv station I work for is owned by the New York Times. It is company policy to immediately fire anyone who brings a firearm on the property. I still need the job, so I don't carry at work.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hello, parson. I understand where you are coming from and this is not what I'm referring to. The folks I'm wondering about are those who can carry but do not when there are no restrictions.

Best.
 

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Hi Mr. Camp,

Parson45 raises an excellent point. Most employers will not allow firearms/weapons at work.
Having worked as a professional hospitality manager for over 20 years in hotels/restaurants, I can attest to the fact that as a point of policy most corporate employers will not allow an individual to carry.
As a CWP holder in South Carolina, I can also attest to the fact that there are over 20 places that you cannot legally carry, ie church, doctor's office and ect. When SC proposed the citizen's for armed defense laws in the 90's, there was a major lobbying effort by the American Medical Association, Hospitality Association as well as several other special interest associations to have their "bias" thrown into the law as well as the Chamber of Commerce to allow businesse's to post "no concealed carry" stickers on their shop fronts to disallow armed carry onto their premises.
Sadly enough, all of this has diluted the right to carry to "where can I carry?"
On the bright side, SC has a grassroots organization dedicated to lobbying for the right to carry and progress has been made in ammended several of these laws.
Oh, by the way, did I mention that you can't carry into a nice restaurant with Alcoholic Beverage License? Its not a matter of inconvenience, malaise or lack of desire, its a matter of complying with the law.

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
" Some carry in their vehicle, but not on their person when perfectly lawful to do so."

Once again and from the original post on I am not referring to folks who are told "no" by employers or prohibited by law from carrying at a particular place.

I am wondering why people who can simply do not when there is no law or provision against it.
 

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Concealed is concealed.
Other than a public school (what better place to carry for the defense of yourself and others!!!), I don't really concern myself with a "not welcome" posting.
 

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Mr. Camp,

I don't know that we have that type of people here, so I don't know you'll find a good answer.

I can say the only place where I voluntarily abstain from carrying is at Ria's family's funtions as they are anti-gun and they don't know I carry. Ria however isn't and I carry here. She will not allow my long guns at her place without bringing a safe with me... but I digress.

Josh <><
 
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Oops. Sorry for the misunderstanding that almost hijacked the thread. I'm one of those who carries all the time that I can. I just don't understand those who don't without the law/job keeping them from it. You NEVER know when something might happen. I wouldn't leave my handgun at home any more than I would leave my pants at home.
 
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I agree it doesn't make sense to me. My brothers and I took it a step further for Xmas. Our father was usually carrying an NAA mini-revolver. Now, I don't have anything against them but as a primary ??? And yes, he does have other appropriate pistols available. We ordered a Sparks VM II for him. And told him to quit carrying the pop-gun as a primary but as a back-up it's o.k.

The way the law it set up in Mn (once the various court stuff is sorted out...) any business that posts must also verbally inform you as you enter. Havn't had a business tell me yet.

Steelheart
 

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There is the element that doesn't carry because they like Parson45 either work in an environment which precludes CCW (this includes almost anyone who works for a school district, the courts or works on federal property). Not to be ignored are those who dine at establishments that serve alcoholic beverages in those jurisdictions that restrict carry in such places.

There are a lot of reasons people who can carry don't. All of them are equally as good in their minds as why they got the CCW in the first place. In the end, there is really only ONE REASON. Personal choice.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Hello and thank you all for your responses; they are appreciated.

Here are some observations I've made over several years as a CHL instructor on this area of discussion, but I want to preface it with a statement that I absolutely believe in the law-abiding private citizen's right to own personal firearms be they long guns or handguns. I support the lawful use of firearms for defense and have zero problems with criminals intending to leave victims from their unlawful acts finding themselves sorely "surprised" when they choose the wrong victim. It adds a little bounce in my step when I learn that some would-be rapist caught a bullet in the chest for his efforts.

Most of the good folks I've been a part of instructing in the state's CHL know that the world can be dangerous and see the good in having a firearm handy, but I believe that they somehow really think they're "immune" and that "it" won't happen to them. They see the handgun as some sort of talisman to ward off evil by its mere presence. As we all know from "The Armed Citizen" in The American Rifleman" this is sometimes the case, but I'm here to remind us all that there are some vermin who will accurately "read" whether or not the person will actually shoot or not and who will be annoyed that they dare oppose them. Often this same group of crud cares not one wit whether or not they maim or kill to get what they want so long as they don't get caught. We are nothing more than "suckers" who go by the "stupid" rules and are somehow below them and what THEY want. Many simply do not have any idea how quickly and unexpectedly the criminal assault can occur. They do not understand that if it occurs while they are separated from their handgun, the odds are greatly stacked against their being able to get to it; the gun might as well not be there.

On the other hand, I've had some students who have been victims and are determined not to be ever again. These folks usually carry.

I see handgun carry licensing programs as the opportunity to be to legally have another "insurance policy" in effect, but to be so, it must be accessible...INSTANTLY accessible.

As abninftr mentioned, it is a personal choice thing in the end when folks opt not to carry when there is nothing forbidding them to and I believe that this choice comes from:

A. Not thinking through why the defense gun is carried and,

B. Not understanding that in most instances the assault will be both quick and unexpected and deluding themselves that it will happen to someone else.

All of us face situations where we cannot carry due to laws, job prohibitions, etc, but much of the time we can carry. It remains my opinion that IF we are truly willing to use the gun IF it becomes immediately necessary, the wise move is to make sure that it is present.

Best.
 

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Just my opinion, 'cause I'm not a mind reader. But it seems like a result of poor handgun selection. Like they get a 'big' handgun 'cause the gunzines say that's what you need, a Z801911 with light installed. Then when they try to carry it, it's too heavy and inconvienent. IWB holsters are a pain unless you wear a jacket over it. Don't work too good down South here in summer. There are some 'tuckable' IWB holsters but I never enjoyed them. The shirt just doesn't tuck all the way in. People in a hurry aren't gonna take time to put on one of them underwear super special holsters either.
More emphasis needs to be placed on pocket pistols for civilian carry. Civies can't carry a big Glock in an outside holster like LEO's. And most civies probably don't need that big a pistol anyway, they're not gonna be shootin thru car doors and windows to stop a perp. Close up, last resort, self defense needs to be emphasized more. For that, I like my Kahr PM9 for pocket carry. Maximum size pistol I can pocket carry easily. There are some ultralight snubies that work good too. They just bulge a little more is all.
CWC don't mean much if the handgun is too big and left at home.
Just my observation. Probably wrong. Whatever. :-/
og.....even a little P32 (pop gun, as some call it) in the pocket is better than nothing!! ::)
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Hello, oldgranpa! I think you make some VERY valid points in your post. I, too, agree that the gun must be carried to be of use and for the majority of us, a convenient gun is much more likely to be toted than perhaps a larger one even if the latter is perhaps more effective.

I carry 24/7 when lawful. Much of the time my gun is a J-frame loaded with what I believe to be a potent load for caliber. Would it be my first choice in a fight? Nope, but it will be there. At the same time, when I'm out at night or if I just decide I will, I tote something a bit more substantial, but the J-frame remains on my person, too.

To counter the deficiencies in the S&W J-frame, I practice with it regularly. Not likely that I'll be have a "problem" tonight, but the J-frame's on my person as this is being typed. There is also a forty-five less than two feet away.

Best.
 

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Mr. Camp,

Here's something to chew on along the same lines:

It seems that the type of permit system determines who carries. You'd think that those who have to pay a lot and go through courses would be the ones more serious about carry, but I'm finding the inverse is true.

In Indiana, it costs right around $20 to get your permit. There's nothing but a backround check. There's no instruction (though I personally shot the Sheriff's Dept course, voluntarily). Everyone I know who has a permit always carries, and most tend toward the backs of restaurants and such, preferably with their backs to the doors.

Texas requires a course, yet you're asking why people don't carry.

This brings a thought to mind: Perhaps those who have a mandated course simply float through it, one more thing to get out of the way, and, again perhaps, the ones who don't have to go through a course do their own research and come to the conclusion that they should always carry. Perhaps it's about being forced to learn and having the choice to learn.

This may also explain why the majority of LEOs are not gun people though it's one of the most potentially dangerous pieces of equipment they carry.

Josh <><

P.S. The Sheriff's Dept used to list publicly on their website the number of permits applied for. If all were to be granted, everyone in this county would be armed. If interested, I can dig up the link and send it to you, if they still list this. J
 
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