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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
no stronger endorsement can be made than what you trust your own hide to..with that in mind I carry my Sig Sauer 229 in .40 S&W caliber..in a Bianchi AccuMold holster loaded with 180 grain Hornady Custom hollowpoints

it came with tritium nightsights
 

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Hello. My always gun is an S&W Model 642 loaded with Remington 158-gr. LSWCHP +P, though I am going to take a look at Corbon 110-gr. DPX +P. Belt guns sometimes vary but of late, they have been either 9mm Mk III Hi Power (Win. 127-gr. +P+), Glock 17 (Same ammo), or a lightly modified SA Mil-Spec .45 (Remington 230-gr. Golden Saber or Win 230 Ranger JHP). A couple of times, the belt gun was the Ruger SP101 loaded with Remington 357 125-gr. Golden Sabers.

Best.
 

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Hi there Paco,

I use my Kel Tec P3-AT carried everywhere and everyday or my S&W 642-2 loaded with Federal Personal Defense ammunition in my new Galco front pocket carry holster. Why? Most days I wear shorts and a T-shirt or a polo shirt and khakis. Not much concealment cloth there.

In the house, I keep my Glock 23 close at hand with tritinium night sights and loaded with Federal Hydra Shoks in .40 S&W.

When winter sets in and I can finally wear a coat, the Glock 23 goes out the door as my belt gun in its Strong RH pancake holster and spare magazine carrier.

Chris
 

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After reading agent Patrick's article again, I've concluded no handgun is gonna stop anybody unless it's a lucky head shot or neck shot to the spine. So since I'm not an LEO with the luxury of shooting BG's aimed fire over 7 yds, I'll just have to depend on luck at real close range and hope for a head shot or multiples to the upper thorax. A light weight real small deep conceal pistol in my pocket is what I carry anymore, like a KT P32 or my Kahr PM9 if I'm in unfamiliar territory. In addition, rule 1, run away if possible is formost in my mind. Sorry if I sound like a wimp but that's my take. For home protection a whole different story (big bore), but that's not the subject of this thread.

www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi-hwfe.pdf

og
 
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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
rule 1, run away if possible is formost in my mind. Sorry if I sound like a wimp but that's my take.
from the Department of Justice


Commentary Regarding the Use of Deadly Force
in Non-Custodial Situations

I. Introduction

The Department of Justice hereby establishes a uniform policy with respect to the use of deadly force in both custodial and non-custodial situations. This commentary does not address the use of deadly force upon subjects relinquished to persons or facilities responsible for detention or incarceration. All other uses of deadly force are addressed in this commentary. The policy and this commentary provide practical guidance for officers who must make grave decisions regarding the use of deadly force under the most trying of circumstances. The policy also is intended to maintain uniformity among the various Departmental components and to achieve uniform standards and training with respect to the use of deadly force. Although each component may still develop and conduct its own training on deadly force, the policy governs the use of deadly force under all circumstances.

The policy is the product of discussion among the various law enforcement agencies whose personnel are called upon to make decisions regarding the use of deadly force, of review of the current policies governing the use of force, and of advice of legal counsel from various Department components, including those charged with law enforcement, defense of civil actions filed against the government, enforcement of civil rights, and provision of constitutional advice. In developing the policy, it became apparent that decisional law provides only limited guidance regarding the use of deadly force.(1) In addition, as a matter of principle, the Department deliberately did not formulate this policy to authorize force up to constitutional or other legal limits.(2)

II. Definitions

Deadly force is the use of any force that is likely to cause death or serious physical injury. When an officer of the Department uses such force in non-custodial situations, it may only be done consistent with this policy. Force that is not likely to cause death or serious physical injury, but unexpectedly results in such harm or death, is not governed by this policy.

Probable cause, reason to believe or a reasonable belief, for purposes of this policy, means facts and circumstances, including the reasonable inferences drawn therefrom, known to the officer at the time of the use of deadly force, that would cause a reasonable officer to conclude that the point at issue is probably true. The reasonableness of a belief or decision must be viewed from the perspective of the officer on the scene, who may often be forced to make split-second decisions in circumstances that are tense, unpredictable, and rapidly evolving. Reasonableness is not to be viewed from the calm vantage point of hindsight.

III. Principles on Use of Deadly Force

The Department of Justice recognizes and respects the integrity and paramount value of all human life. Consistent with that primary value, but beyond the scope of the principles articulated here, is the Department's full commitment to take all reasonable steps to prevent the need to use deadly force, as reflected in Departmental training and procedures. Yet even the best prevention policies are on occasion insufficient, as when an officer serving a warrant or conducting surveillance is confronted with a threat to his or her life. With respect to these situations and in keeping with the value of protecting all human life, the touchstone of the Department's policy regarding the use of deadly force is necessity. Use of deadly force must be objectively reasonable under all the circumstances known to the officer at the time.

The necessity to use deadly force arises when all other available means of preventing imminent and grave danger to officers or other persons have failed or would be likely to fail. Thus, employing deadly force is permissible when there is no safe alternative to using such force, and without it the officer or others would face imminent and grave danger. An officer is not required to place him or herself, another officer, a suspect, or the public in unreasonable danger of death or serious physical injury before using deadly force.

Determining whether deadly force is necessary may involve instantaneous decisions that encompass many factors, such as the likelihood that the subject will use deadly force on the officer or others if such force is not used by the officer; the officer's knowledge that the subject will likely acquiesce in arrest or recapture if the officer uses lesser force or no force at all; the capabilities of the subject; the subject's access to cover and weapons; the presence of other persons who may be at risk if force is or is not used; and the nature and the severity of the subject's criminal conduct or the danger posed.

Deadly force should never be used upon mere suspicion that a crime, no matter how serious, was committed, or simply upon the officer's determination that probable cause would support the arrest of the person being pursued or arrested for the commission of a crime. Deadly force may be used to prevent the escape of a fleeing subject if there is probable cause to believe: (1) the subject has committed a felony involving the infliction or threatened infliction of serious physical injury or death, and (2) the escape of the subject would pose an imminent danger of death or serious physical injury to the officer or to another person.

Intermediate force. If force lesser than deadly force could reasonably be expected to accomplish the same end, such as the arrest of a dangerous fleeing subject, without unreasonably increasing the danger to the officer or to others, then it must be used. Deadly force is not permissible in such circumstances, although the reasonableness of the officer's understanding at the time deadly force was used shall be the benchmark for assessing applications of this policy.

Warning shots and shooting to disable. Warning shots are not authorized. Discharge of a firearm is usually considered to be permissible only under the same circumstances when deadly force may be used--that is, only when necessary to prevent loss of life or serious physical injury. Warning shots themselves may pose dangers to the officer or others.

Attempts to shoot to wound or to injure are unrealistic and, because of high miss rates and poor stopping effectiveness, can prove dangerous for the officer and others. Therefore, shooting merely to disable is strongly discouraged.
 

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Depending on weather, perceived threat area, and social considerations:
P32 with RWS FMJ
Makarov with Barnaul JHP
HiPower with GDHP+P
 

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"Depending on weather, perceived threat area, and social considerations:"

I like that, so I'll steal it, Jonny. :)

Like Stephen I have a pretty much "always" gun, a Smith & Wesson M638 loaded with 158-grain Winchester LSWCHP +P. I was carrying the Speer 135-grain "snubby" load, but it's hard to find around here, so eventually I'll shoot the last nine rounds of it I have on hand and only replenish the supply should I find it on store shelves someplace. Our area has limited choices in handgun ammo because of several factors, not the least of which is a relatively low population.

When the weather cools down, I carry either a Browning Hi Power loaded with 127 +P+ Ranger or a stainless Colt Commander filled with Winchester 230-grain SXT. On occasion I'll also carry a full size 1911, as it's no less concealable than the Commander.

Other than the little 638, I almost never carry a revolver concealed. For the amount of hassle necessary to conceal a 6-shot .38 or .357 wheelgun I can carry a bottom feeder with lots more firepower.
 

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For concealed carry I have two favorites. A S&W 642 loaded with Federal +P 129 gr Hydra-Shok and a KelTec P32 loaded with Fiocchi 73 gr FMJ.

I carry the P32 in warm weather in a UM #1 pocket holster in my right hand trousers pocket. The rest of the year I carry the 642 in a UM #3 pocket holster.


Roadster
 

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When I finally get my carry permit it'll be:

Kahr PM9(always) with Hornady TAP 124-grain HPs.
Rock Island 1911(when dress/weather permits) with Winchester 230-grain HPs.

I'll probably add a 9mm carry gun to that eventually, either a S&W 3913, Glock 19, or a Sig 239, with the same Hornady 124s as the Kahr.

-Rob
 

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Hi Paco,



It usually rides in the belt holster shown but my pockets are deep enough to allow pocket carry should I be pressed to do so.

Josh <><
 

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good read, Paco.
again I emphasize..I'm not a LEO...I don't have the luxury of using deadly force under just any circumstance since I'm not authorized to arrest anyone...so if I shoot at someone far enough away that they couldn't attack me with a knife or club, I'm probably going to court and without a good lawyer costing big bucks, I'm probably going to be convicted of murder or at least manslaughter...and then serve time for what I thought was my right to use deadly force.
So my concealed carry pistol is only for last resort use under actual attack. If the way is open I'm leaving the area as fast as possible and avoid the unpleasant results of a court hearing.
Do what you want. Carry the biggest, baddest, big honkin police caliber you want. Have a good lawyer lined up if you plan to use aimed fire at any BG's you think might attack you. All this isn't as easy as it sounds and we've been sold a lot of BS about how to use our CCW's.

I'm also impressed by the number of replies like mine, carrying a small, deep conceal pistol like the P32 or PM9.

It's OK, I'm wrong most of the time anyway. Who of you that are married are never wrong.


FWIW,
og
 

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Glock 19 here. Speer gold dot 124 Gr +p + 1 extra mag.

Fist #1 IWB holster.

I'm leaving the area as quick as possible too.

My last resort is my CC weapon.I hope I never have to use it.

I wish my state would also allow CC of a knife, but from everything I've been told the ole pocket knife is all we get. :-/
 

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unkempt1,

A decent "tactical" folder should serve you fine in terms of knives. I do not have a pistol permit, so I carry concealed a fixed blade almost everyday. It's "comforting" like a pistol would be, but I'd much rather bring a gun to a fight than a knife. Check out Spyderco's Civilian or Matriarch, both were designed as last ditch defensive folders for law enforcement and should serve equally well in the pocket knife role.

-Rob
 

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hi, unkempt1,
that is serious, only a pocket knife!? :(
What state are you in? Here in Alabama ******* Country
we're allowed up to 5" as long as it's not a Bowie Knife type or a butcher knife. So I get to carry my Chinook II anywhere I want.

og
well, not just anywhere, not in the Courthouse, metal detector at the door to get in.
 

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Josh, I can't let this go by unchallenged: If you can pocket carry a Taurus 92/96, maybe instead you can just jump into that same pocket and hide from the bad guys!


Seriously, the Beretta/Taurus 92/96 is the biggest gun I've been able to conceal on an all-day basis, regardless of season. It really drove home the need for a good BELT as well as holster. (And definitely not a snug shirt in the summertime!)
 

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hi, unkempt1,
that is serious, only a pocket knife!? :(
What state are you in? Here in Alabama ******* Country
we're allowed up to 5" as long as it's not a Bowie Knife type or a butcher knife. So I get to carry my Chinook II anywhere I want.

og
well, not just anywhere, not in the Courthouse, metal detector at the door to get in.

Yeah randomman, I can carry the regulat folder. (I carry a kershaw blackout assisted opener) but would like to be able to carry my gerber guardian back up too. the fixed blade is the issue in that instance I believe.

Virginia here, VSP officer informed me when I asked, something about offensive weapon, of course I forgot to ask the county when I picked up my CC. I was excited
 

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Depends, like jonnyc said: climate, social circumstances, etc.

Saturday, in a tuxedo, I had the Kel-Tec P32 tucked away.

Sunday morning, going to church in chinos and a sports jacket, I put the Airweight Bodyguard in my pocket. Since the jacket often comes off there in the warm months, I don't like to wear a holster.

Otherwise, I like to have a full-size gun. There are 5 that I rotate. By rotate, I mean I will wear one for a few months and then switch. I shoot all of them every so often, but practice most with whatever I'm carrying, plus whatever is coming up next in the rotation, so I've got the "feel". They are: Beretta 96 Centurion; Springfield Armory Mil-Spec 1911; Browning Hi-Power; S&W Model 13; S&W Model 24. In the summer, a wife-beater T underneath and a tropical shirt over works well. In the winter, a jacket, sports coat, or vest. The Springfield and Beretta get the most play during the warm months, as their finish is less susceptible to moisture. I'm partial to the winter months when I can carry my Smiths -- I just love 'em.

I am not yet satisfied enough with my performance with the Charter Arms .44 Bulldog to rely on it much, although it makes a nice larger-caliber, deep-cover piece in a Kangaroo armpit holster when I absolutely, positively, cannot afford to print. I am fine with it out to 5 yards, but even at 7 yds the groups open up to what I consider unacceptable. A hit in the 8 ring, on the range, on a nice day, with no one shooting back, is one thing. Those could be misses in bad weather, while moving, with a hostile dance partner.
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
A senior citizen using the men's room yesterday at a popular Middletown eatery was approached by a would-be robber waving a knife. The potential victim responded by pulling out his own weapon - a handgun. ... No shots were fired and the suspect fled.

The senior citizen was 68 years old. Americans 65 and up are more likely to own a gun than any other age group.

Said one of the men interviewed, "I can't run and I can't fight 'em. ... What a burglar fears the most is a homeowner who has a gun. Not only in the home, but in public restrooms too, I guess."

what was that old saying about bringing a knife to a gunfight ?
 

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right Paco, I just carry a knife for cosmetic reasons, like male jewelry. With friends who also carry CCW, we just like to show off our "jewelry" to each other.
og

and a note for Josh.....I'm sure Brian meant no offense about hidding in your pocket, neither did I by laughing at the humor. It's like this....when you are respected by your friends, they will pick on you. That's how you know your friends like you, they pick on you. Cheers!
 
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