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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello all, I am a newbie and for the first time I am considering carrying a gun. Things are getting bad in this world. :(
 

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Sir,

There are a few things about civilian carry/home defense that are much different from the military. I'll clarify as I address your concerns.


[quote:kl2tf1zy]
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Josh,

Thanks for the well thought out reply.

I went to the S&W website and the Model 10 seems to come only in a 4" barrel. Also, it looks very large and heavy to carry concealed in my pocket all the time. It also looks like it would really "print".

Am I going to have to compromise on "concealed" in order to get "stopping power"?

What about a flat, small auto like the Guardian .32NAA?
http://www.naaminis.com/32NAA.html
Is it not enough of a stopper? Too misfunction prone?

I get the point of your scenario! If it may take that much to stop a racoon, what might it take to stop a human 10 times that size? No telling!


You shoot to stop, not to kill. Death is a possible side-effect of a shooting-to-stop.
Yes, I agree. My choice of words was not as well thought out as your reply was.
 

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I would agree with Josh's response re: getting a good revolver. I carry a Colt Det. Special, and it comforms very nicely for a 6 shot revolver. I think that "printing" is more a problem of holster design than the actual gun itself, for the most part. It also depends on what you want to conceal it under: a suit jacket, bulky sweater, or sweatshirt can hide just about any gun; a tight tank top won't even conceal a small 25 auto.
Automatics, while all the rage nowadays (including law enforcement), come with their own problems, i.e. mechanical safeties, jams & feed stopages, ect. I don't recommend an auto for anyone who isn't willing to train and shoot it ....A LOT!!!
While I have never been involved directly in a shooting, I have worked in O.R.s and E.R.s in inner city hospitals, and I will say that I don't ever want to be shot with anything, but if I had to be shot with something, I would prefer that it be below .38 caliber. Most folks shot with a .38 and larger don't make it to the O.R.; those who do don't usually make it out.
There are several good revolvers out on the market today, but don't overlook the used gun market, either....there are several good Colt, S&W, Charter Arms, ect out there.
The only thing that I would differ on with Josh's post is the choice of ammo.....while I would go with the rounds he listed (Federal or Remington SWC hollow point, 158 grain), I would go with the +P version and make sure that the revolver I got would handle +P ammo. I did some testing with the remington round, and it expanded VERY nicely in wet gauze/newsprint. Here is a photo:

 

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Bobo,

Sir, I would respectfully submit that the .32acp is at its best as a backup gun (BUG) or third pistol.

I would go no lower than a .38spl +P as I mentioned.

The autopistol is more prone to malfuntions than the revolver. Let me clarify: If you have a malfunction, let's say a stovepipe, and you don't clear it immediatley you're in deep. It takes a lot of training to clear malfs and you state that

[quote:gqygdb0f]
 

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16gauge,

I didn't say +P? I didn't say +P! How could I not say +P?

Actually that's what I meant; I think it came out in the editing process sir. I'll have to watch that. Apologies for the confusion.

Josh <><
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
16gauge,


While I have never been involved directly in a shooting, I have worked in O.R.s and E.R.s in inner city hospitals, and I will say that I don't ever want to be shot with anything, but if I had to be shot with something, I would prefer that it be below .38 caliber. Most folks shot with a .38 and larger don't make it to the O.R.; those who do don't usually make it out.
That's exactly what I meant by "some one who has experienced the aftermath first-hand" in my original query! Good info!

Also, thanks for the .380 +P info.

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Josh,

Just for clarification; the Guardian .32NAA is not a .32 acp.

This is from NAA's site:

The load delivers in excess of 1222 f.p.s. velocity to a 60 grain proprietary bullet from Hornady. This generates 199 ft. lbs of energy, specifically from the 2.5" Guardian barrel (1453 f.p.s. & 287 ft. lbs from a 4" test barrel).

According to industry expert Ed Sanow, the 32NAA:

Produces more velocity, more energy and more stopping power than any conventional jacketed lead hollow point (JHP) 32 ACP, 380 ACP or 380 ACP (+P) with 15% less recoil (Power Factor) than the (+P),

Penetrates 8.3" of Gelatin after passing through four (4) layers of denim, expanding to a .55" mushroom with a retained weight of 100%,

Has a Fuller Index of 62% One-Shot Stops, compared to (for example) the 380 ACP Federal 90gr. Hydra-Shok (53%).


More here: http://www.naaminis.com/32NAA.html

I know you said you didn't want to get into a caliber war. I agree, this just for clarification about the .32NAA round. I also know this is NAA trying to sell it's wares, so it take it for what it may be worth.

Also Josh, I appreciate and thank you for the respect, but you can drop the "Sir". I'm no more Sirry than anyone else. As a matter of fact, you deserve more respect than I do in this forum -- you've had a lot more experience at this gun thing than I have. I am a newbie with a lot to learn that's why I posted here. Thanks for sharing your knowledge and experience Sir. ;)

That goes for 16gauge and anyone else who is willing to share with me!

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I understand both of your (Josh's and 16gauge's) reasonings for a revolver vs. an auto. You both are probably correct with the reliability issue and the need to practice thing.
 

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Bobo,

I don't know that I can stop with the "Sir" thing. I'm 27. It's a respect issue.

As for the OSS index, please forget what you've read there. Marshall himself advocates emptying the pistol (or so I've heard).

Quick interjection here for everyone: We will not be debating Marshall and Sanow's work here. It's worse than 9mm vs. 45


I'm aware of the .32NAA mini's properties. Ballistics aside, are you willing to wed yourself to one ammunition manufacturer, even one as respected as Cor
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Sir,
I do believe that with proper training (and you could even go back to the good old FM 7-1!) any quality snub nosed .38 +P would be adequate. Just don't forget the basics of marksmanship, and of course to shoot, move, and communicate. My current location (Iraq) doesn't give me much time to horribly elaborate, but I'm sure the other guys will pick up my slack.

Anthony
 

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Hi there Bobo and Josh,

I just bought a Kel Tec P-11 and plan on using it for the scenerio that you have described and as Josh kindly pictured in the above photo.

In my opinion, it is the healthiest balance of size, calibre and capacity in a 9MM pistol. It is also a budget stretcher at a MSRP of $355.00.

The P-11 pistol is purely defensive pistol and not a target pistol with its heavier DA trigger pull. I does require practice to get used to, but I would not fear accidently discharging the weapon in a emotionally charged confrontation, i.e. covering a "intruder" at the termination of hostilities.

In my opinion, the P-11 is the best of both worlds, i.e. revolver simplicity and semi-auto capacity for the price paid. In other words, "it has an attractive price/value relationship".

I also carry the P-32 and feel adequately protected by the diminutive pistol for deep concealment and it suits this role well.

Bobo, my wife also is not a big fan of having loaded guns in the house for a good reason. We have two teenager and one preteen boys in the house. The older kids come home late at night.

I do however keep a 12 gauge Mossberg Persauder close at hand with the magazine loaded and a orange sticker on the reciever marked "loaded-do not touch!". In the case of a B&E/home invasion, I want the largest calibre weapon available.

As you can see, I have different weapons for different scenerios as each each has its own parameters of engagement. Shot placement for any weapon is the key to the ending of hostilities and regardless of calibre/load.

Sir, I will not comment on any actual shooting encounters as this is a public web forum.

Best of luck in your search,

Chris
 

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Bobo,
I carry the Kel-tec P11 9mm on a regular basis with the P32 as a back up. The P11 carries 11 rounds(10+1) of 9mm in a large pocket sized package. It will readily conceal in a hip pocket or front pants pocket. The action is DA only with a long heavy, revolver-like feel to it. It has proven itself to be extremely reliable weapon. It won't break the bank either.
 

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Welcome Bobo .. I only have about a year of gun experiece/ownership but just remember this saying I read in a magazine " Its better to hit with a .22 then to miss with a .44 magnum". Its all about shot placement so just remember that yea certain calibers do more damage then others but you need to be able to hit what you are aiming at and the gun feel comfortable in your hand.

I was told by many a person that I know that it does no good for you to have a gun in X caliber if you are not comfortable shooting it. To either inquire of friends and to also to find a range that rents handguns and to rent different ones to find the caliber that suits you.

Let me be the first to also recommend that if you only intend to have 1 gun in the house make sure that your wife knows how to use it also ..just in case thier is a scuffle and you drop the gun or something happens for what ever reason the gun is in another room and she has to go get the gun that she knows how to operate it safely.

As far as caliber that is a call you will have to decide for yourself because everyone has a different minimum caliber they would carry. What is recommended in many shooting magazines is to carry the largest caliber that you can shoot comfortable and in your case conceal comfortable.

For instance my father who is a handy man and self employed works everywhere from apartments/houses in some of the worst areas of town to the house out in the middle of nowhere on a back road many times into the late hours in the morning. He carries a .380 pistol with him and he's a no nonsense type of guy and has several handgun calibers to choose from is comfortable carrying this caliber. I also have a uncle that is never without his lil old 38.


It might help these guys/girls out if you give a price range of the most you want to spend on a gun. One can recommend many different brands in the same caliber that cost different prices that will get the job down.


Now for those that have responded for simplicity of not getting into a ammo caliber war I would say everyone just name the gun and the price range they run in, what caliber you recommend and how much the ammo costs.



I would recommend a something in .380 like a Bersa .380 runs about $200 -$300 and it holds 7 rounds. I have heard good reviews of these for the cost . After I get my CCW later on this year I intend to pick up one. I dont know what defensive load to recommend but Im sure someone will respond with one.
 

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Also BoBo you might want to rephrase what you typed in your original question because if you ever have to shoot someone things that you have posted online in forums and said to people can/will be used against you and might make it look like you wanted to kill the person.

The proper way to phrase some of your statements would be
 
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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Bobo and all,

Welcome! I can't add much to the advice given here...it's sound. I would add that if you can't find a S&W M10 2" look for a S&W M13 or 65 with a 3" heavy barrel. Same pistol, but will shoot .38 Specials or .357 Magnums.
There are a lot of good police trade-ins out there. Start there and save some money. Most are in good shape, mechanically.

Wes

P.S. As for critters and pistols: Was charged by a porqupine and dumped him with a single 125 gr. JHP from my 4" M19. Well, he didn't actually charge. He waddled toward me... ;)
 

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The P11 carries 11 rounds(10+1) of 9mm in a large pocket sized package. It will readily conceal in a hip pocket or front pants pocket. The action is DA only with a long heavy, revolver-like feel to it. It has proven itself to be extremely reliable weapon. It won't break the bank either.
Actually,since the ban is over..you can get the Kel-Tec with 12+1 capacity now.
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Beakersloco,

You are absolutely correct!

My choice of words was much stronger than intended.
Your edits are right on!

_____________________________________
Thanks to all of you who responded. Your information and opinions have been very helpful.

I'll keep you updated as things progress...
 

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Bobo,
I'm in agreement with all the posts on your question. But just my preference is the Kahr PM9, nice 9mm, costs a lot, but if you can afford one, it's a jewel.
og
 
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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
Bobo:

A number of years ago I elected to go to a very small 9mm auto as my 'always' gun. I felt then, and still feel now, that the 9mm cartridged is the smallest cartridge suited to reliable self-defense. I rejected the 32's and 25's for their ballistic unreliability. The 380 ACP was almost good enough, but I decided 'almost' just doesn't cut it if my life is on the line. I also decided that if I was going to trust my life to a pistol, it had better be a strong, reliable, durable pistol.

At that time options were limited, so it came down to the KelTec P11 and the Kahr K9. The Kahr was far and away the superior pistol, so I went with that. I have been very pleased with the reliability and packability of my first Kahr.

Since then Kahr has continued to expand the teeny 9mm market with smaller and lighter versions. First they developed the MK9 (micro version of the already small K9), then a polymer framed version called the PM9 (polymer, micro 9mm). I would strongly recommend you obtain a PM9 for your 'always' gun.

The PM9 is light and small enough to carry in a pocket. You could also consider carrying it in an inside-the-waistband holster with your shirt tucked over it, which is a very comfortable way to carry concealed. It has enough power in the 9mm cartridge to do serious ballistic damage to a perpetrator, unlike the 32 or 380.

You will pay more for a PM9 than a lot of guns, but it's not prohibitively expensive. I just checked gunbroker.com and they have one listed for $495, new in box. Here's the link: http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=29994732
Also, keep in mind that cheap but good 9mm practice ammo is readily available at any Walmart (Winchester USA 115 gr, 100 rounds for under $11).

The best defense ammunition for 9mm is Speer's 124 gr Gold Dot +P load. It will function well in the PM9

Good luck and good training.
 

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As far as the PM9...I like them but I think a Kel-Tec P3AT would be as good because of the short barrels of both. I don't think velocity would be much different between the 9mm+P or some .380 +P out of them.
 
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