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Discussion Starter #1
Hi all,

The Walther PP Super I wrote about one month ago has found a new home. It came per post service yesterday with 250 rounds 9 mm Police Hirtenberger ammo. I found some time - you bet! - to open the box and examine the little beast.

First the gun is not NIB, I was to enthusiastic by reading the add which said "very good condition" (in german). The dealer didn't cheat anyway, it is very little shot. The gun came in the original numbered plastic box, with 2 mags and the manual that the dealer finally found - he told me at first it was missing.

The finish is the high gloss found on the classic Walthers, without holster wear but a slight small faded place on the right side of the slide (I had a simillar fading when I ate a tomato sandwich over my SIG P230 and some juice dropped on it - fruits and blood are poison to finishes). The black plastic grips have a few dings. Inside the machining is rather rough, with some tools marks. It is similar to my 1973 .380 Ulm PP.

All in all I'm satisfied with the buy, the manual is a good surprise, the condition of the grips not really up to my expectations.

In the hand, the PP Super feels rather heavy (760 g. empty/825 g. full) but the steel frame is a good insurance in a pistol shooting at the limit of power for a blowback design. The grip is almost target quality, large for a compact pistol, it fills well the hand.

The sights are tall and thick, with the "i" pattern. Exactly what I like on the big P5 brother. The trigger is even better than the P5's: short and light pull in DA, almost no take-up and light in SA. The very best pull I ever experienced in a DA/SA! Walther's engineers did a very good job as they used the infamous classic Walther trigger system with a cocking piece of the heavy-triggered PP/K and P38 and not the enhanced direct system of the P5.

But there are no gratis deals in this world: the firing pin block works only in uncocked condition. When the hammer is cocked, the firing pin is in its upper - unblocked - position, which explains the fine SA pull. When you use the decocker lever on the slide - smooth and well positionned for the thumb due to the small size of the gun - the hammer drops on the firing pin blocked by the decocker. Scarring... but I take the trade.

Other points: the PP Super has a magazine button on the usual place behind the trigger. It is well protected by the thick grip panel. The magazine drops fully in the grip, which might be a problem in case of extraction difficulties. The decocking lever is not flush on the slide, it can hook in the garments in a quick draw. The slide stop lever is a great improvement over the PP design and even the P230/2, it is also well protected by the grip panel.

And I forgot to mention: my PP Super was made in 1977 ("HH" mark), 30 years!, and is an ex-Bavarian Police gun ("ByP" mark, for "Bayern Polizei", crossed with a "X").

That's all for the "dry" report. The range report will follow as soon as possible. You bet I'm excited!!!

L.
 

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Hello Larry,

I bet you are excited!

The PP Super sounds like a fantastic semi-automatic and a real "find" for your collection. The "i" pattern sights are intriguing and I wonder what role the PP Super played with the German Police before the acquisition of the P-5, which was replaced by the SIG 225.

We look forward to one your great range reports and your follow up once you have a chance to shoot it. A trigger better than the nice trigger on the P-5 must be a joy to shoot!

Chris
 

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Well Larry good for you. I like to see things start off right and the manual sure helps. We will be looking foward to your range report as they are fine little pistols. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hello Chris and Baldy,

The "i" pattern is a variation of sights markings: white dot on the front, square mark on the rear. It works better for me than the usual 3 dots pattern.

The PP Super was a Walther attempt to follow on the success of the PP/K pistols by the police. After the terrorist attack on the Munich Olympics in 1972, there was a big debate in Germany - and in other european countries - about the adequacy of the still usual 7,65 browning pistols. Some german experts were reluctant to adopt a military round like the 9 para: they considered it as overpowered for LE use. They felt also that the 9 para had a "nazi" past that could have a negative influence in the press.

So Walther caught on the WWII Ultra round and developped the PP Super. It was adopted on a limited basis since 1974 by Bavaria and some other l
 

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Hello Larry,

Thank you so much for the clarification on the historical adoptation of the PP Super. It had never occured to me that Germany selected handguns based on their states and it makes perfect sense.

The idea that the P-5 and SIG P-225 were used concurrently by different landers over the same time period clears up a lot of things as well as the German's reluctance to use the 9mm Parabellum because of the wartime historical context associated with the round.

All in all, we look forward to your "live" range report and shooting impressions with the PP super. It would be very exciting to hear how it does indeed compare to the P-5.

Chris
 

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Larry,

I am glad you finally have it in hand. I found your explanation of how very police chose their weapons interesting also. I too look forward to hearing your thoughts when you have been able to shoot your pistol.

twoguns
 

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Discussion Starter #7
So I had the opportunity to spend an hour at the range yesterday. The Walther PP Super and the elderly brother PP 9 short came with.

First I shot a magazine of Hirtenberger 9 Police at 10 m. to check function. No problem, very soft recoil - I was curious about that as the slightly smaller PP is snappy in 9 short. Then I shot 9 short in the PP Super to see if that cheap ammo could be an alternative for training.

Only one malfunction in the some 80 rounds shot: a failure to ignite, even on the second pull. I imagined that the shorter round had been pushed furter in the chamber by the extractor but it extracted without hick. Anyway the primer was unmarked, so what? It fired without problem later. This slight problem doesn't bother me as I would chose the 9 Police ammo for serious business.

I also shot the PP 9 short for comparison. At 10 meters, shooting fast DA/SA doublettes, the PP Super wins hands up, with impacts in a 10 cm centered area. The traditionnal PP does as good in accuracy despite the heavy DA pull but the smaller sights and snappier recoil emped at speed. At 25 m., slow SA, the PP does better, the Super being handicaped now by the big sights. I also shot the Super with the Hirtenberger at 25 m., with a slight gain in accuracy.

All in all, the Super is a very efficient gun, with Walther high ergonomy that lends to fast accustomance and good performances. The 9 Police ammo gives a slight gain over the 9 short, difference in recoil is negligeable in this gun. It is just very expensive (1 franc/1 round). By chance, the 9 short (0,4 fr/1) can be shot in this particular exemplary. It was not the case of a 9 Police SIG Sauer P230 I tested once, that gave numerous failures. I also rate the Super as superior as the SIG in handling, ergonomy... and look.

For info, the 9 mm Police is rated at 1024 fps and 233 ftlb by Hirtenberger for a 100 grs conical flat point (FJFN) bullet in the 92 mm barrel of the Super, versus 951 fps and 190 ftlb for Magtech 95 grs (FMJ). In the Super, the 9 short shells do bulge slightly, due to the larger chamber.

Bye.

L.
 

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Larry,

Thanks for your report, as I did find it very interesting. I am glad you enjoyed your shooting session, and appear to be very pleased with your Super. Although it does not appear to be as inexpensive to shoot as the 9 short (which we tend to call a .380acp here) it does appear to offer superior performance over the short.

I remember years ago I toyed with the idea of getting a Super from a dealer in Shotgun News (a publication many smaller dealers used to locate weapons). I never did, as I mistakenly thought it was bascially another "version" of the 9short/.380. Now I see I was wrong, and wish I had obtained one.

I do not know if you are able to reload in your country, and if the components you would need are readily available. But if you can and the components can be found, that would certainly be one way to allow you to shoot more of the Supers for the same amount of money.

But thanks again for your usual excellent report on your new pistol. I always enjoy the historical information you are able to provide on many weapons I possess meager information on, and appreciate the range reports as well (tips my hat).

Enjoy it as it sounds like you have found a keeper.

twoguns
 
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Larry:

Yer gonna make me buy one of these . . . . . . . .



Only one malfunction in the some 80 rounds shot: a failure to ignite, even on the second pull. I imagined that the shorter round had been pushed furter in the chamber by the extractor but it extracted without hickt
Be aware that when you shoot a cartridge in an autopistol that is shorter than that for which the autopistol is designed, this can put a tremendous strain on the extractor hook compared to when you shoot the correct ammo. This is because when you shoot the correct, longer ammo the mouth of the cartridge case headspaces on a lip in the pistol's chamber and keeps the cartridge from moving forward when the firing pin strikes the primer. But when a shorter cartridge is shot, the mouth of the shorter cartridge case doesn't headspace on the lip in the pistol's chamber because it is too short. Instead, the extractor has to hold the cartridge against the pistol's standing breech or breech face and when the firing pin strikes the cartridge's primer the extractor hook takes the entire force of the firing pin's strike on the cartridge. This can lead to early failure and breakage of the extractor's hook. If the Super's extractor is the same as for other Walther models, it may be easy to replace. Otherwise, since this model has been long-discontinued, finding a replacement extractor may be difficult. You might want to avoid shooting 9 short (what we call .380 ACP over here) in your Super unless you know that there is a plentiful supply of Super extractors available.
 

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Hi there Larry,

Thank you for the incredible report and the comparative testing between your PP and PP/Super. I am amazed that two handguns from the same manufacturer could be so different in terms of handling and trigger pull.

It really sounds like you have a "prized handgun" in your possession that will bring you years of shooting pleasure!

Again, thank you for the report!

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thank you all for the kind words,

Especially Alan for your caveat about shooting shorter ammo. I did it after reading that shooters in Australia had turned to .380 after the 9 Police supply dried down there, without problem apparently. But I know of a dealer in germany and will order some pieces for the Super like springs, firingpin, etc... and a extractor or 2.

Bye.

L.
 
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I did it after reading that shooters in Australia had turned to .380 after the 9 Police supply dried down there, without problem apparently.
I don't know that it will be a problem with the Super, but it is a problem when shooting shorter ammo in some other autos. Get at least one other spare extractor and if the hook breaks off shooting the shorter ammo, you will be O.K.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Great advice Alan, I asked this morning about the avaibility of parts and wait now for the answer. I wish I could take some pics but I get so much to do at work and out of work! I promise to...

L.
 

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Hello Larry,

I hope you can find a supplier with parts and imagine there is one because so many were in service.

I may have missed your comparison, but how does the PP/Super compare size wise to the PP? I am just curious?

Your new PP/Super sounds like a real prize and you have an envious collection of Walthers.

Chris
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Sizewize, PP and Super are similar in length and height, the second having a more thick, beefy slide (24,5 mm/.97 in. vs. 22,3/.86).

The grip appear thicker because they fill better the hand and have a thumb rest, but they are similar (29,1/1.14 vs 28,5/1.12).

Both guns are all steel, weighting 750 g./26.45 for the Super vs. 650/22.9 for the PP, with empty magazine (my scale is not as good as my calipers)

Bye.

L.
 
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Larry:

Yer gonna make me buy one of these . . . . . . . .
Well ya did.

At a really big gun show (2+ acres of tables) here last weekend I ran across one with box and papers on Friday morning of the gun show. Since I hadn't gotten more than about 20% through the gun show and there's been a PP Super at a local gun shop for several months that I thought was in a little better shape (for $600, although I'm sure I could get it for a bit less), I took note of it (the seller had $450 on the gun show item but "was willing to negotiate") and moved on.

I'd forgotten about it and late Saturday afternoon when I was going around closing deals and picking up the handguns I liked best (saw perhaps 3 dozen that I liked at the show but, hey, I'm not Bill Gates) I went and looked again at an early polished-blue NIB Beretta Model 92 Compact for $675. I felt it was too much for me for what it was and turned around and saw the PP Super again across the aisle. Price was down to $350 and, looking at it closer, I felt it was in about as good a shape as the one in the gun shop --- and $250 cheaper. A no-brainer.

So now to find some ammo while it's still available.
 

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Hello nevadaalan,

Please let us know when you get it in hand and we look forward to hearing more about the PP/Super. It sounds like a super buy for the price you have posted.

Chris
 
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