[ccwman]

Yes, I remembered to use the search function before starting a new thread.

I'd like to hear people's opinions on "pre-fragmented" or "frangible" ammo like Glasers and MagSafes. Some say they don't penetrate enough or make enough of a wound cavity. Others say if you're not using them you're crazy.

Do anyone have any experience with these? Any LEO's out there? Have you read any articles you thought were the last word on these?

THANKS!
Dave

 

[Stephen A. Camp]

Hello. I shot a coyote with a 9mm Glaser Silver, more of a coup de grace than anything as the animal had been hit by a car and was dragging its rear legs behind it. He went out like a light and his suffering was over instantly, I believe. I think probably any hit with about any bullet would have done the same thing as he was hit in the back of the head.

For an unobstructed chest shot, I think that they'd probably do the trick. If an arm was in the way, I'm fairly sure that they would not if we're counting on physical rather than psychological "stops."

How much better or worse than rapid-expanding bullets of other types, I flat don't know. I do think that they penetrate a bit less than I'm comfortable with. In my own informal tests with them, they darned sure do "chew" out a large but shallow "wound channel" compared to other ammunition.

Best.

 

[twoguns]

ccwman,

I can only relate one real-world experience a LEO encountered. This was roughly 20 years ago using the Glaser 9mm load. To be honest I have not kept up in their development since then. I used to carry my BHP chambered with the same Glaser round, along with the first two out of the magazine. The rest of my mag was JHPs.

I got this from a salesman at a gun store where my indoor range was at the time. We both carried our BHPs loaded as I noted. He had a close friend who worked narcotics for Altanta PD, and carried his BHP with a full mag of Glasers with other mags loaded with JHPs.

The LEO was attempting to arrest a biker who was a club member for selling narcotics. The arrest went south quickly and the biker began shooting at the LEO. The LEO returned fired making what he described as several good solid chest hits using the Glasers. He realized they were not penetrating the biker's colors (denim jacket). He quickly dropped his mag and reloaded with JHPs. In short order the biker was down and out permanently.

All 3 of us saw it as a real learning experience, and simply opted to leave the Glasers alone at that point. As I said, I have not kept up with their current state of development, and it may well be they are more reliable today than they were 20 years ago. This is simply the only real-world LEO situation I can offer you.

Just my thoughts for what they are worth. But based on that situation, personally, I do not opt to carry Glasers any more. I have no experience at all with any other similar type loads.

twoguns

 

[ccwman]

Shooter's Guide's latest catalog features 9mm Luger 90 grn. +p prefrag. It comes in a brown box with military type designations. Of course I don't have it with me but I believe the ad says the headstamp reads "WCC". Can anyone tell us what this is? The price isn't bad.

 

[twoguns]

ccwman,

Yes sir, it is frangible ammunition, which basically means the "projectile" is really a powder type compostion that is pressed together to form the "bullet". This type of round is designed to break up or literally disintegrate when it makes contact with any hard surface.

We use frangible bullets in my agency as a training round, that allows us to shoot metal targets during tactical training, at close distances, without the risk of ricochet that would exist with JHPs, FMJ or other metal type projectiles. While companies may make other calibers now, I know we have purchased it in .223, .38spc, 9mm, 40S&W, and .45acp.

But the "hard surface" disintegration is somewhat questionable as well. The first time I saw a frangible round was while attending a firearms instructor's recertification course being taught by my agency's firearms unit. They literally had gotten their first shipment of it in during our class. They brought some of it out for us to use in shooting metal targets. They also wanted to see how it would function in the various personal weapons we were carrying as duty weapons.

It did disintegrate totally on metal targets. You may have particles splash back on you, but it really is a powder type material, so it does not draw blood or anything along that line. I did question how hard the surface had to be to obtain that effect, and the guy teaching my group said he honestly did not know.

We were standing beside a "raid house" we used in tactical training, built primarily with 2x4s. He handed me a round and said shoot a 2x4 and lets see what happens. I shot the board on the 2" edge from about 10', and we discovered that the projectile was a through and through, exiting the opposite 2" edge totally.

It is an excellent round if you want to shot metal targets at close ranges. But if you are thinking of it as an alternate type of round in place of a Glaser, I honestly could not recommend it for that purpose. My personal opinion, based on my experience with these rounds is that it would perform much like a FMJ would. Probably giving you through and through with little more effect than a FMJ - unless you happened to strike a bone. Then I really could not guess what it would do.

It is a good metal training round, but very expensive compared to normal metal projectiles. But I would never carry it as a self-defense round personally.

Hope this helps to answer your question of what the round is. I thought I knew what the round was from your question, but I went to that site and found it listed in 9mm ammo, so I could be certain it was the frangible I thought it was.

twoguns

 

[ccwman]

Dear Folks,
Pls excuse my stupidity. It is advertised as Winchester (tm). Which leaves me guessing - Win Combat Cartridge? Win Custom Cartridge? They hype it for home defense or other short range situations so you don't have to worry about overpenetration, assumedly not to hit someone innocent. Might buy some as it is a cheap +p round at that price. Dave

 

[twoguns]

Howdy ccwman,

I could be wrong, as I am certainly not an expert. But I have always thought WCC stood for Winchester Cartridge Company. I could be wrong, but it is simply some type of Winchester headstamp.

Just as a reminder on this round sir. I did check you link before responding. It is shown as more of a flat nose bullet style, than the found nose frangibles we use in training, but the frangible is basically a frangible I think.

Remember when I shot the round nose configuration into a 2x4, shooting into its longest end, the round nose was a through and through shot - much to the surprise of everyone watching me shoot the round. It had been breaking up totally on metal targets, and that was exactly what we were all expecting to see when fired into the 2x4.

Just a suggestion for what it is worth. If you do buy some, you might want to try some informal testing if you shoot outside where it is possible. Try shooting some of the rounds through various sized pieces of wood, at "room/house distances". If your informal testing shows this round still penetrates a 2x4 for example, that would certainly be something I would want to be aware of ahead of time.

Good luck in your search for the ideal home defense round. Opinions will certainly vary on this issue, and they do. I simply am not sure from a personal level that such a creature has been invented yet, although many folks/companies have certainly tried to and often claim to have made the ideal round.

Each caliber, bullet style, and brand has its strong points and weak points in my opinion. The best we can all do is simply weigh the plus and minus factors, and choose what seems to work best for each of us, given our unique situations.

Just my thoughts for what little they may be worth. But if at all possible, I really would suggest you do some informal testing of this round by firing into wood. You may be surprised at what happens. Or it may truly totally break up on contact now. But it seems to me there is only one way to really be sure what the round will and will not do.

Good luck,

twoguns

 

[weshowe]

Gents,

Experience with frangibles is limited. I've shot a couple small critters and they died...that's about it. Study of the issue and actual shootings seem to indicate that it either performs way beyond expections or is a dismal failure. Not much in between.
Add to this the astronomical cost they sell for and I can't get warm and fuzzy about them.
That said, I am aware of a new family of frangibles that have been made for the Dept of Homeland Security and the Coast Guard. There are three types for the 12 Ga and one "warning" round(tracer with magnesium flash/bang). Additionally, they are being made in several pistol calibers. The several shootings I am aware of with them (pistol) left the perp DRT in two cases and the third ceased ALL hostilities. I won't say much more on a public forum. Presently almost all production is going to the government. If you need more info get ahold of me privately please. I know the owner and the designer...good stuff. They are kind enough to let me test it and believe me it operates beyond the parameters of most frangibles. It is NOT designed for range use, although could be used as such. Spendy...

Wes