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Gents,

While chronographing the .357 Sig today I also tested Winchester Ranger LE 230 Gr. +P loads (RA45TP). Chronographed from my stainless commander these averaged 920 FPS for 10 rounds. That's from a 4 1/4" barrel! Smokin' for a 230 grainer. I would expect 940-950 out of a full sized Government Model.
Just info...

Wes
 

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Hi Wes,

Thanks for the info. That velocity is pretty hot indeed. Do you have the Combat Commander or the lightweight version, and how was the recoil? I just bought a bunch of the regular 230 grain Ranger load for my Combat Commander - will try some of it out tomorrow.

Thanks,

PGM
 

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PGM,

I was shooting the Combat Commander (all stainless steel). I was surprised at the velocities. I would have figured 850-875 FPS for +P ammo. I'll have to test this in my Government Model at a later date.
Recoil is "brisk", but managable.
If you shoot this in a Commander I would use a heavy duty recoil spring and buffer. Just to be on the safe side.

Wes
 

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Thanks Wes,

I will definitely stick in a 20 lb spring if I get a hold of some of the +P stuff. It should be pretty potent on the receiving end as well, I would think.

PGM
 

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This is our issue .45 load. I have had lots go from 920 to just under 1000 (actually the first lot brok 1000) in a 5" gun.

Some Commanders will show as much velocity with modern ammo (powders are now more geared to short barrels) as 5" guns if you get a "slow" 5" and a "fast" 4.25" barrel.

It is good ammo!


BTW - years ago the first 230 ranger loads (not +P) went over 900 but when the +P load came out the regular one dropped to around 850.

Jim H.
 

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Jim,

Thanks for your response. Will test the ammo through my Government Model and report back.
You indicated this was "a good load". Can you share any information from actual shootings with the round?

Wes
 

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Jim,

Thanks for your response. Will test the ammo through my Government Model and report back.
You indicated this was "a good load". Can you share any information from actual shootings with the round?

Wes
We have not seen much actual use of it except on deer. On them if they are small does it often goes through or snags on the skin on exit. On a bigger buck it goes to the off side and is usually cut out in a lump. All bullets have expanded to over .75 caliber ...more often than not about .86 caliber. The one shooting I know of on a person it hit high in shoulder and dropped the subject instantly (hit bone), did not exit but I have not seen the expanded bullet.

Jim H.
 

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Jim,

Thanks for your information. As always, it's good to have someone that has access to some kind of "street" performance data. Expansion from .75 to .86 is darned impressive!

Wes
 

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All bullets have expanded to over .75 caliber ...more often than not about .86 caliber.
Wait until you see the enhanced Ranger T-series in .45 ACP. It's expansion is impressive ... and the deployed talons are down right scary.

--
Mike
 
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There's an article in the current issue of the Shotgun News on Winchester's new "T-Series" ("T" as in "Talon," i.e. "Black Talon") Ranger LE ammo. It produces expanded bullets exactly like the evil Black Talon ammo of yore plus, and this is the bigee, will still very reliably expand after penetrating denim, thick clothing, sheetrock and even plywood and automotive glass. Now that's ballistic engineering . . . . . . .

Alas, it won't (officially) be available to "civilians," but the heavy barrier penetrative capability of the load is of little consequence to civilians, as if a civilian shoots at an assailant through a barrier to kill him, the DA will likely raise the issue as to how much of a grave and lethal threat to you he was when behind cover. (All of which to be sorted out between your "legal eagles," the Deputy DA and his staff, and the jury.) ;)

And there was a photo of the expanded bullets side-by-side with each other in 9mm, .40 and .45 ACP. You definitely (having a choice in the matter) would want to be hit with the 9mm, and especially not the .45 ACP load. (But then, that's the case with most any personal defense ammo.)
 

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weinerschnitzel, I guess I don't see how police requirements would be any different than an average citizen's. Police only use deadly force to defend their lives or someone elses. Otherwise they have to answer for it just the same as we do.
 
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Many of the "personal defense" rounds are more effective stoppers than LE stuff due to thier not having to meet penetration criteria. Le ammo design takes into account performing even after windshield and car door penetration.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
beungood and all,

Rather than open a topic here I'm opening one entitled "Personal Defense" Ammunition Characteristics/Performance.

Wes
 
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