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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ive just been reading some of the posts in practice and tactics,
as a new member from a country that practically has zero street weapons i find these posts truly fascinating and sad.

i have been reading a magazine article about crimson trace laser sights recently which stated only 20% of shots fired by police (in a particular study) reached their intended target and when fitted with a laser sight it increased to 90% with the added benefit of having a perpetrator more likely to surrender seeing the dot on his/her chest.

now in my situation i can only use a weapon for club use however the article did say it was a very valuable training tool for competition shooting, eg showing a shooter just how much the POI can change when pulling a trigger.

i would like to know what is the general opinion amoungst experienced shooters.

would i be wasting my money on the purchase of such an item,

should i concentrate on perfecting my shooting by normal means first?

cheers "BB"
 

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There is little doubt that people who do not actually train (being exposed to instruction once and qualifying 2 to 4 times a year does not constitute "training") can probably increase their accuracy somewhat by using a laser.

I have seen them on the range, even in practical drills, many times. While the hits improved for most people the thing that stood out was that they were abysmally slow!!!!

I have seen exactly one person shoot a laser with what I thought was reasonable speed and he already was a world class shot anyway.

For rudimentary training, demonstrating to folks how the disturb the muzzle (and therfore the impact) in pulling the trigger they are great!

There is also the tactical issue with lasers. If you cannot leave it off, momentarily light up the target and shoot, and get it off again in less than 2 seconds then it is somewhat dangerous to the shooter.

I am by no means saying they are useless, but like flashlights, they also have a down side.

Just random thoghts,

Jim H.
 

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Howdy Mr. Bangbang,

I found your comments about the article interesting sir. I have no idea if the 90% comment they made is correct, but I do suspect it would improve accuracy some at least. One thing to point out is that not all LEOs are avid shooters, while some can never find enough time to spend of the range. Personally, I know several civilian (non-LEO) shooters who spend much more time practicing than some of the folks I work with do.

Except for the badge and a belt full of equipment, coupled with training, many folks overlook the fact we started life as civilians too, lol. So among LEOs I personally think you will find both avid shooters, and those who only shoot when they are required to qualify. Personally as a LEO firearms instructor, I simply can not relate to that last group, but I can promise you that they do indeed exist.

But in fairness, I will simply point out when you are involved in a gunfight, the stress level is simply difficult to describe properly, even if you are not wholly feeling it at the time. It is still there, even if beneath the surface a bit. The stress of someone trying to shoot you tends to make effective shooting decline. Great shots tend to become good shots, good shots fair, etc.

Since you are asking for suggestions on buying a laser, I will simply offer mine sir. Others will offer theirs as well. But the bottom line is you will have to analyze your situation and decide what will work best for you.

I seem to recall you saying it has been maybe 10 years since you have fired much until recently. (I read so many posts, I may have confused you with another member, if so sorry.) My suggestion is to initially take the money you would spend on a laser unit and invest it in more ammo. Spend you time right now, developing your shooting skills to a higher level.

Once you are happy with your proficiency level - wherever you choose for it to fall on that magic scale - then keep practicing often enough to maintain that level. At that point you might want to consider purchasing a laser unit, for the benefits you might find in one then.

My concern is as noted, it can slow you down and cause you to fixate on it a bit too much to me. I think it would be best left for down the road after you sharpen your skills up. I think it is easy enough for us shooters to pick up poor habits, and very hard to correct them. That is why I suggest you think about holding off until your are more proficient.

But again sir, only you can decide what you feel will benefit you the most.

Shoot well and shoot often.

twtoguns
 

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BB,

My comments only mirror Jim H's and Twoguns. We tested lasers and found them extremely slow, too. Training to get a subliminal "flash" sight picture is prefered and way faster. It does take to time to develop. Consider that time and money spent as an insurance policy you may have to cash in one day.
As for bad guys...I'll guarantee they don't wander about looking for red dots in the middle of their chest Even if they did you should probably be shooting at that point rather than waiting to react to their next move.
Spend the money on ammo and training...you'll be better served.

Wes
 

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I love discussion forums (there is no sarcasm there - they help us grow our knowledge and ideas). However I am always amazed that folks will defer to anyone (including myself) on simple issues that take very little effort to test.

If you dont want to purchase a laser to test - I can see why at the cost of a good system - then find a range that will rent a handgun with one on it. Or find a friend with one.

Go shoot it. You need some method of timing.

Any really serious student of weaponcraft has a timer so that is probably the best way, but if you have a friend you can use a stop watch (this is not competiton so precision to the nearest .1 seconds is not all that critical) or you can use gravity - drop a tennis ball (or a pop bottle) from about shoulder level (it is better if you have a partner to do this so you can start with both hands on the gun and he can judge the timing of the shot).

Start at the low ready (muzzle depressed anywhere from 30 to 45 degrees) and fire a shot into a Sheet of typing paper folded in half (8.5" tall by 5.5" wide) and time to the shot. Try it with laser, try it with sights. Try it anyway you want.

Range 5-7 yards. If you cannot do this, including reaction time in less than 1/2 second (about the time it takes the object to drop). Then work on it - but dont get wrapped around the axle about increments of less than .2 second or so.

A nice goal would be to get 2 hits in the half second.

Jim H.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Wow, thats for all your comments. i wish the enthusiasm for firearms in Australia was more like you guys.

The article i quoted came from Australia and New Zealand handgun issues 5. The statistic was from the FBI national institute of justice the article actually said with lasers fitted the hit rate was "as high as 90%", i guess the article is bias as they are trying to promote sales.

Two guns- i respect your comments and agree with you about people only doing the minimum required training. If my job required me to be in the line of fire id be wanting to practice as much as possible. I have come to learn it doesn't matter how good we think we are someone may one day be better. all you have to do is look at the Guinness book of records to validate my comment!

As far as stress levels in a gunfight (and i hope none of us ever have to be in one) affecting performance, i can fully understand what you mean. I am not in LE myself but I have had a 44mag wiz near my head and its not a pleasant experience (by no means was this bullet fired with the intent to do me harm and in fact i guess because i heard it coming meant it was a ricochet) but i scared the crap out of me.

you are correct in saying i haven't shot much in 10 years, but that is handgun not rifle, so you could say i am a novice when it comes to short arms.

anyway getting back to the point i tend to agree with all of the posted comments. i have heard the laser can be a bit slow, i have a cheap $5 laser pointer which i will tape to a replica and use that at home to Dry fire practice instead.

I will also follow Mr Higginbothams advice and seek out a laser junkie at the club and beg and borrow for a test. however that may not be as easy s it sounds down here in my corner of Australia.

In conclusion yes i think i would be better served in spending my money on projectiles and practice practice practice. you guys just confirmed my own thoughts.

thanks heaps for your comments, it the 25 years Ive owned guns it is nice to finally talk with people who enjoy owning and using them rather than being frowned at!

cheers bang bang.
 

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I can't reiterate strongly enough Jim H's advice to seek out an electronic shot timer as well. At the very least a friend with a stopwatch. (But geez, Jim, why'd ya even throw in the part about dropping a tennis ball/pop bottle, without mentioning a sand filled hourglass or a sundial while you were at it?
)

Seriously, folks who try to gauge their progress in defensive drills without a timer are eventually just spinning their wheels. Wouldn't mention this if I hadn't seen it so often, even from folks who have money enough for a walk-in safe full of firearms and ammo by the bushel basket. They won't drop a C-note on a timer (or a chronograph either, but that's another rant.)

Onward

Brian D.
 

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Howdy Mr. Bangbang,

Sorry things are simply not as easy for you there as here. But we do have members who do not live in the US as you have already seen. Your thoughts, experiences and questions are always welcome here sir, as are those of all our members.

I personally think we are a friendly bunch of folks here, and many members do possess some great knowledge they enjoy sharing whenever possible.

As I suggest to anyone, ask your questions and consider the responses you receive. Then pick the suggestions that you think will work best, or easiest (whatever standard you need to apply to the particular subject) and practice with them.

You mentioned you would ask around at your club, but finding a weapons laser may be hard for you. You also said you have a pointer type that you can attach to a practice model and try at home. So another thought hit me too. If nothing else, you could take your pointer laser to the range/club, and perhaps figure out a way to temporarily attach it to your handgun (not sure what you are shooting). Don't expect it to stay on for many shots, and I have no idea how stable it might be either. Again only you can decide if that is a practical suggestion for you to consider.

Enjoy your time here with us sir. We do try to help when we can.

twoguns
 

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There aint no Misters here Mister


I can sympathize with your .44 incident...its no the bullet with your name on it to worry about it is the one addressed "to whom it may concern" ;)

Good luck "Down Under"!!!

just plain 'ol Jim
 

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HY BB

In my country, there are very few guns in the street. So, I have never considered the purchase of a laser sight for practice or self defense. I have the feeling that for using a laser sight, you have to learn again how to fire with this laser. Other reason is that if you only fire in your club, you might be shooting for sports, and as far as I know, there are no competitions using laser sights.

If you purchase a laser sight, it must be a good one, and with this money I would prefer to buy lots of ammo or a second pistol.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
To use a good ol Aussie term "no worries mate", i mean Jim...... i was just trying to be polite is all.

Hi iagbarrb, you also have a very valid point i don't know of any discipline that uses laser sights either, so it would only be a very expensive training tool unless i decided to join the tactical police


in a few weeks I'm going outback to central Australia and up "that way" you'd be lucky to squeeze of a shot under 100 yards so even if i could legally use a pistol up there the slugs would be chopping dirt and a laser sight would be a dot the size of a car tire!!!!

cheers Bang bang.
 

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I can only think of a couple of things to add:

One concerns the intimidation claim (usually from laser manufacturers, but not always)- the one where lasers supposedly bring confrontations to an end by the bad guy seeing the dot on their chest and losing their will.
I have a hard time believing that one. For one thing, who checks their chest for dots during a fight?

The other thing I can think of is that I have only heard one really good reason for lasers beyond as a training tool.
That is for cases where the shooter can't lift the gun high enough to see the sights. It doesn't take a whole of imagination for me to to envision a situation where this could happen.
If an arm is injured, or trapped in place during a fight, I could see that a laser would allow the user to "aim" the gun even though they couldn't raise it.
Or, if there is an obstruction to prevent raising the gun to eye level (steering wheel, table top, etc) I could see how the laser could help.

But that hasn't caused me to buy any yet.
 
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Good morning bangbang.
Very good advise from the forum as usual.
You state in your post that you can use a weapon only for club use. So I'm assuming you are not going to use the weapon[pistol/revolver?] for self defense or home protection. I'm with twoguns on holding off until you shake the rust off and become proficient without the laser. I put a CT laser on one of my home defense revolvers only after I had the DA worked on and put about 1,000 rounds through it. Some will say that in a home defense situation, the laser will give away your position. But in my case, I have a well lite home at night and my tactical light will "give away" my position long before the red dot will. The advantage in this scenario is that you can concentrate your focus on the target rather than the front sight.
Good luck down under.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Hello their Gator 13 and barryinIN,

2 very valid points. i guess for you guys in the US who are more likely to rely on your weapon to save a life then a laser may have some advantage in certain situations. One thing that has failed to be mentioned is the flat battery scenario, how many of us have been caught with a flat cell phone battery on occasion? so you could imagine the consequence of a laser going flat at an in opportune time.

this brings me to another question about aiming, it may in fact suggest another thread be started?
I'm talking about keeping both eye's open while shooting. in shows like cold case and CSI or example shooters always keep both eye's open. now i know this makes for better TV however i have heard this is actually quite difficult in reality. what is the general view on this, I'm curious to find out amoungst LEO's and the like. i would imagine in a life and death situation this could be undesirable to have one eye closed due to restricting side vision??
Also for a club shoot IE "practical pistol" discipline one would think it makes common sense if it can be mastered.

all comments welcome bangbang.


If you wish to post comments about shooting with one eye open or two the the new thread is as follows;
http://handgunsandammo.proboards36.com/index.cgi?board=tactics&action=display&thread=1180788859
 
G

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A cell phone is part of my carry equipment; I never carry without one and make sure the batteries are charged. However, this problem is less of a concern with most of the CT models. They have an on/off switch but the laser is activated only when you grip the handgun when it's in the on position. The red dot will gradually dim as the batteries weaken so you are put on notice that a change is needed. It's also a good idea to clean the laser lens occasionally.
 

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One thing that has failed to be mentioned is the flat battery scenario, how many of us have been caught with a flat cell phone battery on occasion? so you could imagine the consequence of a laser going flat at an in opportune time.
Proponents of lasers say that in that case, you just use the sights, which you still have.

Maybe someday I'll try a laser. If I do, it will be on a S&W J-frame.
In the meantime, the money I'd spend on a laser would pay for about half of a three day class, and I'm pretty certain I'd get more from the class.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Was just thumbing my latest copy of Australian Shooter and came across a rifle laser made here in Australia called laserex ls-5000. they claim it can shoot out to 500meters (546 yards) and 1km (0.62 miles) with a scope , must be one hell of a unit but i wonder what to dot size it is at that range

if you want to check it out here is the website
www.laserex.net

cheers, BB.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
hehe, thats funny.
you have no idea how much i wish it was the case. however there is two slight problems.
1 generally "outback" 90% of the time means out the back so its a long way from the coast and
2 if it was the case id keep it hush hush and take up the offer myself.

but we can only dream. imagine having free range on a property about half the size of Texas??? oh what fun... ;)
 
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