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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi All,

If an attacker lands on top of me as the initial attack I would rather use a good knife to do some deep slicing rather than trying to draw a pistol and put little holes in the person. The "get off me" moves still hold and the pistol comes into play when I have time to maneuver.

What are your thoughts on this?

Thanks,

Josh <><
 
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Josh,

Interesting point you bring up. I think it would really depend on the circumstances and the opportunity you have to draw the knife. For example, where is it carried? Fixed blade or folded? Is the attacker armed with an edged weapon. Are your hands full keeping him from stabbing you, choking your or shooting you? My personal preference would to be fend him off enough through strikes to create enough distance to draw the firearm. Once you have the pistol in hand, you now hold the initiative and can bring the incident to a logical conclusion.
 
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My goal is to create space ASAP (ie get him away from me), how that is done will depend on a lot of factors.

What I don't want to do is try accessing a tool unless I can not get the job done with my first line of defense, H2H.

If he is trying to stab you, I figure the best bet is to use both hands to free your self or land blows or both at same time. If these are not working, then go for a tool as your last hope. Knife, gun, at contact distance either is fine, the one that is easiest to get to will be the one used.

A fixed blade on offside ( I like left appendix carry in a static cord setup ) allows me access to a formidable weapon when on my back. A front folder does same, but it needs to be very easy to operate, and I don't have much faith in doing so while pinned in a fight.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Thank you guys.

I like a crossdraw setup with a fixed blade. It allows me to have it instantly positioned right.

In reality though I usually don't carry the fixed blade but a Spyderco folder. The Spyderco is positioned such that it will allow an easy upward slice when opened.

In response to an implied question, the attacker may or may not be armed. I would just want disparity of force requirements met.

When drawing the knife, I believe a series of elbows to a tender spot should cause plenty of distraction. Just my take...

Josh <><
 

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Having only trained with knives for self defense a wee little bit (compared to firearms), can't really imagine a situation where I'd prefer using the blade.

Bullets do a great deal more than make "little holes in the person", sometimes almost instantaneously if Dame Fortune decides to swing things in your favor.

At this moment, only the notion of transitioning to the blade because the gun malfunctioned comes to mind as a distinct possibility. Maybe someone here with more training, and/or a decent amount of REAL h2h fighting, would care to chime in. Jim H, can you hear me now?
 

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As a person who can't legally carry a pistol, I find that a knife in the hand is a reasonable defensive tool.

We're all aware of the 21 foot rule and that more often than not before you can draw and fire you can be attacked by a knife or club, or even fist wielding opponent. At these ranges(less than 7 yards), I believe the better idea would be to transition to a blade and assume a defensive stance.

Therefore, I believe it is important that a person who is serious about self defense practice close quarters hand to hand fighting and particularly knife fighting. I think it's also reasonable to consider a fist load such as a koppo stick or even a flashlight at these ranges for fighting as well. I believe a person should focus on close range disarmament of his opponent, and simple effective arm locks and disabling moves, as opposed to the "flailing about like a madman" theory.

Now, I'm also of the opinion that if I am forced to draw a knife as a defensive tool, then immediately retreating from the area is most likely no longer a solution. At this point, I would attempt to move forward on my opponent, choosing the "best defense is a good offense" option and attacking first in an attempt to disarm and disable my opponent. I must admit that if this were to happen, I would be fierce and would not cease until my opponent or I had been entirely disabled or downed. I would view the situation in which I was forced to draw a knife very similar to the position in which I was forced to draw my gun, Col. Rex Applegate said it best in the title of one of his books, "Kill or Get Killed".

So, I suppose what I am saying, is that if I am forced into a knife fight, I would not chose the option to fight my opponent off of me and retreat, unless I managed to temporarily disable him long enough to do so safely. I would instead choose to fight until he was fully disabled and then safely retreat.

Some may disagree with this theory, but I consider a knife fight to be similar to a gun fight in that you keep attacking until your opponent is down, has surrendered, or has retreated. To stop is to make yourself vulnerable to counter attack. I do however, believe if a safe retreat can be made you should do so.

-Rob
 

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Josh,
You bring up an interesting legal question. I believe that in some states (all?), carying fixed-blade knives concealed is not allowed, even if you have a CCW.
Can someone clarify?
 

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Generally speaking, many - if not most, states allow open carry of a fixed blade knife. That is, PROVIDED it complies with other legal requirements such as length, or type.

California for instance, permits open carry, but dirks and daggers are illegal, so double edged knives are out. An friend who is a disabled USMC veteran living in the San Diego area has openly carried a Kay-Bar on his wheelchair frame for the 16 years I've known him. If memory serves, carrying a concealed knife in Calif. is a felony, whilst a first offence for a firearm is usually a misdemeanor.

Several aquaintances living in other states openly carry as well. A number of them prefer fixed blade buck knives as they are perceived as "working knives".
 

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jonnyC, that law varies by state, there are fortunately and unfortunately no national laws that cover such things.

In the state of Texas, any knife with a blade length under 5.5" that is not double edged a "bowie", "dirk", or "dagger", is legal to carry, open or concealed. Any knife that is deemed "illegal" under the law is simply that illegal.

Every state varies, so check your local laws to be sure.

-Rob
 
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Something to remember about the Tueller drill is that it is timing your "response time" not "draw time". A knife is no faster in this situation... You best bet is to learn to get off the line first or while drawing gun/knife.

I'll draw my gun every time before a knife unless conditions favor a knife even at my disadvantage, ie crowds, background issues.

Bullets do not create "little holes" they create large temporary cavities and that it the name of the game. They also penetrate farther than knives, reaching areas for CNS shutdown that a knife is unlikely to.
 

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Something to think about in the get off-me knife situation you present is the bleeding that will likely occur from what you are talking about. Assuming the bad actor to be a stranger, you don't know what you may be getting into. There are all kinds of nasties out there from HIV to Hep C that can ruin the rest of your life and cause a slow painful death. They can also contaminate your loved ones unknowingly. That is something to consider.

Speaking as one who has been covered in the blood of another person (long story) it is not a feeling that you really want to have. The fear of what you might have, the fear of spreading it to those you love. The knowledge that no test is 100% accurate to determine what you may or may not have been exposed to. It is a scary thing.

It is up to you to determine what tactics to employ and what complies with your personal situation and local legalities. Still, those creepy crawlies weigh heavily on my mind.

That said, I do carry a knife with me every day.
 
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The premise I opperate on is that you go to your most casualty producing weapon first. If my perimeter is being attacked, and I have a claymore - I' going to pop it before I start throwing rocks. As was already mentioned, the Tueller drill has to do with reaction time, drawing a knife will be no faster than drawing a firearm - the elapsed time to wounding potential may or may not be different, depending on your mindset. I'd offer the fact that all firearms have mass, and can therefore be used for clubbing, etc if need be.

Hand to hand combat is something you should train in, both striking, and grappling - as most fights go to the ground for one reason or another. Remember this though, a chunk of my Army training (as worthless as it may be at times) - the man who wins in hand to hand, is the man who's buddy shows up with his rifle first. I have trained, at one point or another in my short live, rather extensively in various forms of hand to hand combat, to include edged weapons and heavy blunt objects.

I remain of the opinion that the quickest way to get yourself killed, is to use an edged weapon without total confidence and utter competence. To deploy an edged weapon with less is begging to be gutted like a fish by your own devices. I carry a folder, and a fixed blade, in addition to my firearm here in theater. Back home, it's a folder, and my firearm. I will use either as the situations dictate, however rest assured that the goal is the deployment of my firearm while maintaing at a minimum striking distance. Moving to grappling distance is not desireable, though surrmountable. Projectile distance is ideal, as it offers more options for diffusing situations and removing threat.

YMMV, VWP, ONVIAS.

Anthony
 

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It is difficult to say what we will do. Less difficult, while we have time to think about it logically to say what we would like to do.

Josh brings up an excellent question and I don't disagree with his answer, I just fear that I might not remember it when the "ship hits the sand".

That old addage, "if all you have is a hammer then everything looks like a nail", can bite the guys who are supposed to know better just as much as the rookies :(

It would be a good idea to get some combatives training and spare a bit.

Onward,
Jim
 
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Your going to do what you've trained to do in a situation like that, and nothing else. It happens too quickly for you to consider the best course of action.

The only good defense against a knife is to have a gun aimed at the would-be attacker long before he gets close enough to use it.

Observance.
 
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