Is +P Necessary for Protection Ammunition?

Good Morning

Doesn't matter that much to me pre se`.

More important that I feel 'comfy' with the load, based on performance and reliability _in_that_gun_.

As ELB noted in another thread, not all standard pressure loads are slower than +P.

There are some pieces I won't use hot loads in. Period.


Regards,

Pat

It seems to me that if you can get decent expansion, a moderate level of penetration, and reliable feeding in your choice of weapons without going the +P route, then go for it. Shot placement is the single most important factor in stopping power (better to hit with a .22 than miss with a .45) anyway. Once in the right place, will the bullet perform as intended? That depends on so many variables (clothing, barriers, distance, angle, etc.) it's almost impossible to say with certainty. Bottom line is to keep firing until the threat is gone, and hope you are hitting vital areas with some of your shots, +P, +P+, standard pressure, or whatever. All other factors being equal (they never are), I would choose the +P or +P+, but the wear on the gun is accelerated and follow up shots might be slower as recoil increases.

I also voted for a variety. In .45 ACP I don't use +P ammo for defense, though I always load up +P in .38 Special. In 9mm it depends on the gun, or as PFF so eloquently stated, "More important that I feel 'comfy' with the load, based on performance and reliability _in_that_gun_."

Currently my non +P 9mm ammo, which I use in both an unmodified BHP and in a Brigadier, is the 124-grain Federal Hydra Shok. In my modified Mark III BHP, it's +P or +P+ loads only, as it won't function reliably with standard pressure 115 FMJ. It does, however, function perfectly with 124-grain military ball ammo (which I categorize as +P). Based on research into real world performance, I'm comfortable carrying 115 Winchester Silvertips, though I'm not carrying them currently.

I don't carry any souped up ammo (i.e. Cor Bon) in the Smith & Wesson 2 1/2" M66 I carry on occasion, but I also don't load it down with .38 Special ammo. In that one I carry full charge Remington 125-grain SJHPs.

It's not physically comfortable for me to carry any revolver bigger than a K frame, so I won't get into my loads for the .41 and .44 Magnums. As I've gotten older I've fired less and less of the .44 stuff and have come to love and respect the .41, but a 4" M57 not a comfortable carry, and my M58 needs a bit of work (it MIGHT get carried some after I finish diddling around with it a bit more).

Mr. Camp,

I voted that it doesn't make me any difference, but it does to a point.

I try to look at the velocity in any caliber where the bullet performs best. I do like most of my 9mm +P, but some, like the 124gr EFMJ, need +P to perform correct, in my opinion.

I guess what I'm trying to get around to is that I don't necessarily equate +P with speed. The 124gr EFMJ is advertised at 1100fps or so (IIRC) and needs that extra boost to get it up there with the standard pressure rounds in 124gr.

It's also a POA = POI issue with me. The 124gr +P hits correctly from my carry pistol as that pistol was designed for 124gr ammo @ 1230fps (so it states in the owner's manual). 115gr shoots too low, and 115gr +P shoots lower still. This might not matter in most SD situations, but I don't want to be playing with "Kentucky windage" if I have to make a 25yd shot for whatever reason.

I still can't figure out why the EFMJ shoots to POA when other 124gr standards are a bit high... ???

Oh well. Maybe I make things to complex, but that's me.

Josh <><

I like the +P in 38 Special and that's about it.

In 9 minimeter, I used to think it was necessary, but not anymore. At least not w JHP for defense. Military use? NATO ball penetrates hard stuff better, but isn't any better against bad guys w/o armor than std ball.

The 124 - 147 GD, GS, HST, RT are fine w me.

The std pressure 93g Magtech First Defense SCHP (solid copper hollow point) surprised the heck out of me; did just fine at 1330 fps from a P89, HP, and G19. Compared to CB DPX through denim it penetrated deep enough for me (18 inches of water v 24) and expanded better than the CorBon DPX (.58 DPX v .62 FD). The DPX petals folded flat against the bullet, the FD stayed extended.

The EFMJ does not need to be +P to work properly as far as terminal ballistics are concerned.

The 124/9 EFMJ is long for it's weight, so when it's loaded to "std" velocities, case capacity is reduced and pressure rises. A 124 +P EFMJ did 1065 fps from a G19 and did 14/.56 into a deer at 15 ft. I've seen much faster +P stuff do worse.

The 105/9 EFMJ is std pressure, lighter, and faster. It expands more, penetrates a little less. Through denim in gel ya get about 14/.55 w the 124 +P, about 12/.62 w the 105 std.

I haven't found any significant differences w POA/POI in my shooting either. Obviously, YMMDV.

I voted it makes no difference, as to me, it does not. I have been in a self defense situation where a firearm would have been welcomed, and was not available - that said I'll take anything with gunpowder and a projectile over nothing at all. There is a wolrd of difference in potential of each caliber, in each available loading - there is also a world of difference in potential targets.

There was a suicide bomber out here, shot 3 times, center mass, with API from an M2. The guy kept moving towards his target intent on blowing himself up. A Bradley pulling security near the checkpoint ended the encounter with 25mm HE. In the end, the man was still blown up, only he wasn't the cause of his detonation - and he didn't take anyone with him.

What is the point to that little story? If there is a threat, I will keep shooting it with whatever I can shoot it with, until the threat is no more. That, to me, is why it doesn't matter if it's standard pressure, +p, +p+, AP, API, or HE. That's my take on it.

Anthony

"Firstly, speed is one factor of the kinetic energy (KE) formula. KE increases exponentially with an increase of velocity. However, a poorly designed or made bullet may not expand no matter how much KE it has. Expansion within the target seems to be what is needed to have the energy perform the work you want it to do - namely damage or destroy tissue. Finally the bullet has to be placed where it will cause the maximum amount of "most productive" damage. I doesn't matter how big, heavy, or fast a bullet is given it is a properly placed, well-designed bullet of sufficient energy."

Again, define "sufficient energy." 200lb-ft? 300?

The problem I have with this theory, no offense intended or implied, is that poorly designed slugs like .45 ball BECAUSE of their weight and size work about as well as the old FBI .38Spl 158gr +P LSWCHP. Why is that? Given equal placement, the larger cartridges seem to work a tad better, even without expansion, contrast the results between 9 and .45 ball. Energy alone has been a rather poor predictor of effectiveness.

Agree that expansion can help, it just makes the larger bore round even better ;-)

My .02 worth.