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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ladies and Gents,

What do you consider proper procedure in the aftermath of a shooting?

The way I figure it:

Keep suspect covered with pistol unless he's fled.

Get on the cell and call the local police, or, at the least, 911.

Ask for police and paramedics.

When I had to fire I was barely out of my garage. After the threat retreated I went inside, unloaded my pistol so as not to spook the responding officer (who wasn't even interested in the gun so much as he was interested in the dogs anyway). They didn't send an ambulance.

However... this is the iffy part here:

I cannot stand handcuffs or being confined (as in a squad car) should they deem it necessary to do either. However, I realize that this may happen after a human on human shooting.

Is it proper to ask for a tranquilizer of some sort from the paramedics while being looked over? Something along the lines of "I'm really scared; is there anything you can give me to calm me down?"

Normally I hate drugs of any sort and rarely take even aspirin. But knowing how I felt after having to fire, I believe that yes, I would need something. I don't believe all that adrenaline is dumped simply to draw and shoot; it's made more for H2H or impact weapon combat. Just my theory in that.

Anyway... is it proper to ask for tranquilizers of some sort? After several car wrecks I've never asked for any, but I'm the one who should have died in most of those, not the other guy.

Josh <><
 
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Medics here don't have that kind of med on the ambulance, so the point would be moot. In my state it takes a doctor to prescribe them.

My opinion is as follows: After safety, the most important thing to do after an armed confrontation is to calm yourself and watch very carefully what you say and how you act. One of my range tactics is to fire, scan for additional targets all while practicing my combat breathing. Hopefully, it will come as second nature when the real thing comes.
 

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My opinion as to what to do in the aftermath of a shooting is to.

1.) Make sure the threat is neutralized. Look for additional assailants.

2.) call 911

3.) Look for eye witnesses.

4.) Take pictures if possible. Most of us have a camera on a cell phone nowadays.

There is a conflict here. Neutralizing the threat may require kicking the aggressor
 

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Your second phone call should be to your lawyer. I'm not joking. It should always be your second call no matter the circumstances, but particularly if, as you stated, you have a 'problem' with being confined. Your lawyer could keep you from being charged with resisting arrest, etc. if the responders decide to take you for a ride.

Josh, if you don't have a lawyer, find one. If you can't afford to retain one, at least get familiar enough with one you trust who will be willing to represent you if things go south on you, especially if you have a penchant for engaging people with 'baggage' (as you seem to do from some of the personal situations that have befallen you that you've written about on this forum).
 

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Hi Josh,

abninftr has offered some very good advice. I would further add that no one can predict into the future of "what might happen". You will be asked by responding officer for a "factual" accounting of what happened. Your actions and reactions will be "evidentuary" to any legal proceedings. It would be wise to have a attorney present during questioning.

As for be restrained, it depends on what the percieved/potential threat you represent to the responding LEO's.

It is likely that your victim will recieve more attention than you by first responders. You will recieve more attention from the responding LEO's.

As my CWP instructor once counciled the class, you may survive an "armed encounter", but you may not fair as well in the aftermath.

Chris
 

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If the LEO has any suspicion at all that the shooting is anything other than SD (and even if he does) you will be detained (not necessarily the same as being arrested). It's also likely that due to the circumstances (shooting at your home for instance) you will be handcuffed at the scene and then handcuffed for transportation to the LEO station. While this varies according to the LE jurisdiction and procedure, if you were riding in the back of my car after a shooting under most circumstances you would be handcuffed.

Your reluctance to being handcuffed will be seen as "resisting", even if you're not technically under arrest.

Any sudden moves or refusal to be handcuffed may result in your being "taken down" and will not help you or your case.

I know that many here will advise you to "lawyer up", but I believe that is a mistake. I would state the simple "facts" of the shooting to the LEO. Your "facts", while subjective, give the investigators a beginning point and often will elicit an empathetic response from LEO.

Do not under any circumstances self-medicate with either drugs or alcohol as it's likely if those substances are observed by LE, your case is weakened.

Steve
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks gents for the info so far.


Do not under any circumstances self-medicate with either drugs or alcohol as it's likely if those substances are observed by LE, your case is weakened.
Absolutely not sir!

Josh <><
 

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Josh, I wasn't referring to you as much as at large. I've been on cases where someone took a drink or several drinks "after" the incident to settle them down.

Kind of muddies the water and might be seen as a contributing factor (as in poor judgment) and make a SD position less creditable.

Steve
 

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Joshua,
I believe headhunter is spot on with his recommendations. I don't think abninftr is necessarily wrong, I've not had much dealings with lawyers. But the bit about the lawyer is in agreement with something I read on John S. Farnam's website.

http://www.defense-training.com

I don't know if he said it or one of his students or friends. To the point, "don't admit to anything. Anything that comes out of your mouth you can't put back in. If asked what happened, say "I don't know, I'm not sure." Once all threats have been neutralized there is plenty of time to think through what happened."

I put the above in quotes but is sorta paraphrased, I don't remember verbatim. It is within the last year of quips on John's website. After getting through the initial trauma, then I would think then would be a good time to call a lawyer, just my 2 cents worth.

I admit I don't know anything about retaining a lawyer, what it costs or how long it's good for. Also, what kind of lawyer.
 

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Josh,

abninftr and NewsFlash's advice is correct; Ayoob and Farnam go to lengths to make the same point in their books. Personally, the last thing I would want in the situation you describe is any substance which is going to alter my situational awareness or ability to think clearly. At this point, you have only won half the battle. You must keep your wits about you for the rest of it, the groundwork for which is laid when the RO shows up.

PGM
 
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I have a "Legal Service Plan" lawyer on call, so I would call him. Next, I would give the police the basics and then ask not to be questioned anymore until my lawter arrived so I not say anything "stupid". Remember, the cops are not there to protect you, but to investigate a crime. They do not know if you are the other guy are the "bad guy". Protect yourself!
 

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Hy,
once I asked a lawyer about what to do if....

He answered me as follows: If you notice you will need to use your weapon, and you have the time, first call the police or alert your neighbors. You will need a witness, and you will have alerted the police, they are coming to "help you".

If you don't have the time, and you have to shoot the aggressor, then you will have to prove you fired on self defense. But if you have alcohol in blood, or drugs, or you ask for a tranquilizer, this can be used against you. So, if you suspect that someone wants to attack you, don't drink a single beer.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Grin and bear it, eh?

Soooo.... we've established that asking for tranquilizers after the fact is a bad thing.

Let's shy away from that, as I won't be asking, and concentrate on what should be done.

For example, was it right to disarm myself before the officer got there? Should I have looked harder for the empty shells and put cups over them so they didn't get disturbed? I've heard yeahs and nays on that one.

In other words, moving beyond my experience.

I'm not sure how well I could give a statement. If I simply do not feel that I can make a coherent statement with my teeth rattling in my head, should I just say so? What will that earn me? Most people I've read say that stating how many shots you fired is a bad thing. How about if you automatically count your shots though? I do, because I've shot rimfire for so long I don't want to dryfire when I'm out on semi-auto and bolt guns, and it just naturally carried over to centerfire.

There's so many conflicting answers out there it almost sounds like one would be safer saying, "My name is _____. I fired in self-defense. Here is my CCW permit and my driver's license. I'm too shaken up to give an accurate statement at this time, but I will be very willing to do so when I have myself under control."

Also, about the lawyer part: I rely on the NRA to provide one as they promised to do when I signed up. I figure I'll always have a specialist on standby this way. Is this a good idea?

I've been getting "bugged" about becoming a Special Sheriff's Deputy (reservist) by those on that force who know me. "Invited each time they get an opportunity to see me" might be a better way to put it. Would being a Special Deputy give me any protection through, say, the FOP?

Reading over this it looks like I'm preparing for a definite confrontation; I very much hope everyone realizes this is not the case. In the aftermath is one part of practice and training I've sorely neglected and am trying to get info on.

What are some good books on this? I've heard In the Gravest Extreme by Ayoob may be a good one. Are there others?

Thank you all so much,

Josh <><
 

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Hy, I would do following:
I am sure I fired in self defense, so I do not have (much) tho fear from law. Stay as calm as possible. Put my gun in a safe place, so the police officers will not act aggressive against me when they arrive. In my country, I would fear an armed police officer that realizes I am armed after a fire encounter, so I would present myself unarmed. Tell my name, show my gun permit and ID (I do not know what a CCW is cause I am not American). I would make a description from what happened, concentrating on not changing anything that happened at the incident. (I believe in the US you can hold your mouth until your lawyer arrives)

If you are fair and always tell the truth to the police and after in the trial, and if you really fired and killed someone in self defense, and if you have a good lawyer, there is not much that can happen to you.

What I think is very important, as a gun owner you should read and know what the law says. Read the police procedures in cases like this, know exactly what is firing in self defense, killing in self defense, using a gun in self defense, and know exactly what is not using a gun in self defense. Every country and every state have different definitions and procedures. I strongly believe that every gun owner has to know the law about carrying guns and its consequences if you have to fire in self defense or in the case of an accident. Who of us can say "I will never accidentally kill someone"? If you know the law and police procedures, you will feel better after an armed encounter, you will know your rights and the rights of the intruder (who might be called your victim in the trial).


KNOWLEDGE IS POWER.
 

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I agree with iagbarrb. The best strategy is to be very well informed about current laws in your state.

The only trouble free method (from a legal standpoint) is to just wait until they shoot you once or twice.

I would add that weather or not a shooting is determined to be justifiable use of deadly force is decided on a case by case basis and the logic applied is not always logical. The two most extreme cases I have heard of are the following:

1.) A repo-guy tried to repossess a pickup in Texas after dark. This is a legal activity. He hooked on to the pick-up with a tow truck and was shot dead by the delinquent owner. The cops showed up, took statements but didn
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Headhunter,

Do you then suppose that using an accepted police caliber such as the 38spl, .357mag, 9mm, or .40 S&W would be a good idea?

The Wabash City Police use, last I asked to look, Sigs in 9mm loaded with 147gr Hydra Shok. If I should use a similar loading, do you believe it would then help?

Thanks,

Josh <><
 

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Joshua M. Smith,

Most of the time I think the caliber, bullet type etc makes little difference compare to the actions taken. The fact that the dog owner didn
 

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There is a lot more to the Arizona case than what has been presented here. A retired Arizona LEO with whom I ocassionally correspond has mentioned the case, and that there is a lot more to the story, and the defendent's history as well as what transpired than has been generally reported. Then too, the defence attorney was probably not the pick of the litter.
 

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In my opinion following a shooting the first thing you must do is determine if the threat has stopped. Afterwards, disarm the threat. Call the police and inform them, "I have been involved in a shooting." Remember your 911 tapes can and will be played if you are tried.

If you are capable (certified), provide first aid to the person you shot. You do NOT want them to die, you only wished to stop them from attacking you. Only, ONLY do this if you're qualified to give first aid and can prove that. Otherwise, do not touch the other person.

Secure your firearm, either reholster it or put it away. I would not attempt to manipulate my firearm beyond making it safe. I will let the responding officer secure my weapon from me, so the context of where the weapon was is secure. By placing it somewhere away from the scene this can signify that I left the scene and might not have rendered aid or might have tampered with evidence, just doesn't look good.

Do NOT touch ANY evidence of the shooting. After you've called 911 and requested police and emergency personnel, secured your firearm and provided first aid (if possible), sit down and don't say a word. When the police asked what happened simply respond that a suspect attacked you and you fired in self defense, provide documents they request, let them disarm you, and let them detain you. Refuse to answer any question that does not involve, "He attacked and I fired in self defense." as the answer. Do NOT go into details. Request a lawyer. Refuse to answer further questions without a lawyer.

I don't care what a police officer thinks when he arrives at the scene. I'll know I fired in self defense and that I need a lawyer to protect my rights, because all the police know is someone got shot. Don't look for witnesses, that's the police's job. Just sit down and wait for them to arrive and get a lawyer!

-Rob
 

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Hy,

I have discussed this theme in my firing club. I have not mentioned the source (I do not know if this is allowed) We are not in the US, so the law can be different. There are some lawyers that fire with us, and they are experts in what we are discussing.

Some comments: In my country, you are allowed to act in self defense ONLY WITH A SIMILAR WEAPON than your attacker. This means, if he has a gun you may use a gun. If he has not a gun you might not use a gun. (This old legal principle comes from the Napoleon's equal force legal principles)

Problem also is what is worse: A robbery or a kill (murder) Are you allowed to kill someone that "only" wants to robber you? The legal word is to comet homicide. Homicide is killing a person. A homicide can be a car accident, or a premeditated murder, so there are different degrees of homicide, but homicide stays homicide. Your "victim" or your "victims family" or whoever can start you a trial for homicide if they can prove that the dead intruder just wanted to robber you or to comet a smaller crime than homicide.

Theoreticaly, your procedure in a robbery case is to call the police, so they can get the guy, put him away and give you your things back. This is even worse if you have an insurance and the insurance will pay you the damages caused by the criminal.

An exception might be if you have some physical handicap, like age, female vs. male, if you sit in a wheel chair, etc.

It is also better to be fired first and then react. It is also better if you have wittinesses, so if you have an intruder, call the police and alert your neighbors. Make as plenty of noise as possible.

This theme is widely discussed in my country, because we have a lot of illegal migrants from neighbor countries (I will avoid the country names because it might not be allowed by the forum) that are making armed assaults to civil homes, particularly nice homes, in which live people that have the money to have a weapon and a license to carry one. (like me) This people come to a poor country like mine not to work, but to assault people. And until now they have been successful.

The conclusion of the discussion (where also some Americans that fire with us were present) was: Take all precautions to prevent such a problem, and if you will need to fire, be trained to be fired first. So the old principle remains: Practice, practice, practice.

I hope my English is good enough, and you can understand what I wanted express.

Andreas
 
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