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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Howdy folks,

Work has recently purchased a brand new HS 2000 in .357Sig for our public gun range, and so before putting out for public use i had to put it through its paces.

I along with the other staff, one being a die hard revolver fan we where very impressed. it has some nice features including the
polymer frame with accessory rails, 4 magazines, palm safety, trigger safety and exposed firing pin so you can tell if its cocked. I'm not 100% sure but unlike the Glock i think it has steel sights. it feels very comfortable to hold is well balanced. the slide stop lever is also easily reachable. Dare i say it feels better than the Glock.
our range gun also grouped very well out of the box. i'm sure it will be a big hit with our customers and was even concidering the possibility of purchasing one of my own.

.40sw is illegal here, (love to find out who makes these weird rules with no common sense) so i guess the .357sig is not a bad replacement.

some however say "you are a metal frame gun person and you will never be happy with a plastic gun (we have heard that before) but i am open to liking any gun i personally feel is good quality.

So what is the general feelings around the traps? has anyone got anything good or bad to say about this gun?


For anyone interested here is a link you can check out.
http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg48-e.htm

cheers Bang bang.
 

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Bangbang - I'm not familiar with the 2000 but how does the .357 shoot through it? Being a polymer frame I would think it would get your attention. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hello Mr Gib.

Just to make 100% certain I have written the correct info i will explain again just to make sure i have got it correct.

the caliber i am talking about is the .357sig which is a .40SW casing necked down to .357

I am in a fortunate position to have have access to the police issue .40SW Glock models which are not available for sale to the general public. in comparison they seem to be about the same to shoot, recoil noise etc, although i have not shot them side by side yet. i will do that next Saturday to satisfy my curiosity and let you know my findings.

the HS 2000 is 25 grams (.88185 ounces) heavier unloaded than the Glock which is why i think it feels a bit nicer. but other than that it is much like the .40cal

BB
 

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Howdy Mr. Bangbang,

Thanks for your interesting range report sir. I do not have any personal knowledge of that particular model, but I have fired Sprinfield XD pistols in the past. For a polymer framed handgun (yes sir I am one of those who simply prefers steel frames, guilty, lol), I too was a bit impressed with the XDs I fired. If I were a poymer fan, for personal reasons, I would look much harder at the XD than I would the Glock. But again that is just a personal opinion.

However I am a major fan of the 357Sig round sir. I currently own an FN HP in 40 with the 357 Sig barrel, need to have a 357 Sig barrel fitted to my CZ75B 40, have a Sig P229 with both the 357 Sig and 40 barrels, as well as two Sig P226Rs (steel frame, stainless finish), purchased in 357 Sig along with the 40 barrels. Can you see a trend developing here, lol.

I do have a great deal of respect for this caliber, and it is slowly beginning to make some inroads as the chose duty caliber with several LEAs here in the US. Among them are US Secret Service, Air Marshals, and Texas DPS. The list of agencies converting to the 357 Sig duty weapon continues to grow steadily from everything I am hearing. It's reputation for street effectiveness, while not a lot of data exists, has to date been very impressive based on the information I have received.

The original 10mm round was developed to be ballistically identical to the 210gr JHP .41 mag round, but fired in a semi pistol. The 357 Sig does much the same. It is considered to be the ballistic equivalent of a 125gr JHP in .357 mag, fired from a 4" barrel, which is another round I hold in very high regard.

Felt recoil is simply a subjective issue to me sir. But to me, I feel less felt recoil when firing the 357 Sig than I do shooting the 40 rounds out of the same pistol. During range sessions, even with some medical issues I am dealing with, I can fire nearly twice the number of 357 Sig rounds than I can its 40 cousin. To date, every friend who has fired my pistols say the same thing, that they felt less felt recoil with the 357 Sig.

It may not be a fair comparison to make because the 40 does normally fire a bit heavier projectile, but the fact I get less felt recoil from a pistol that is pushing the 125gr JHP out about 200 fps faster than the 40 does, does not offend me in the least.

Again, just like makes and models of handguns, someone's choice of calibers is a very personal thing. What works well for person A will not work for person B. But for me, I simply prefer the 357 Sig over the 40. So while I understand you regret the limitation on owning a 40, I honestly think you would be as happy or perhaps even happier with a 357 Sig pistol Mr. Bangbang. I am impressed enough with the 357 Sig round now, that when I leave the house, at least one pistol chambered in 357 Sig leaves with me. Of course there is a Kahr K40 on my ankle too, but simply because I can not find anyone who offers a 357 Sig barrel for that pistol.

So when you do get the chance to shoot both calibers in a side by side comparison, please share your thoughts with us. I would be curious to see what you think.

I know you intend to go back to reloading 9mm rounds once you are able to bring your HP home too. That is another reason the 357 Sig would make a nice addition to your collection too sir. You can load the round using the same .355 diameter bullets you use for the 9mm. However, given its faster MV, I would probably not want to use lead projectiles in it myself. But a JHP or FMJ of some type, that can be used in both the 9mm and the 357 Sig, would seem like a very good combo to me sir.

Think of the 357 Sig as basically a bottlenecked 9mm on serious steroids, lol. The fact that is it bottlenecked also lends itself to excellent feeding in pistols as well. Contrary to what you may have heard, this was the first bottlenecked handgun round I had ever loaded. Honestly I was a bit concerned that it would have its own set of problems, but am very happy to report I have had no issues with the round at all. It loads to me just like anyother handgun round.

twoguns
 

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Bangbang and all,

While I'm not totally ga-ga over the .357 SIG vs. the .40 S & W I do think it is a superb self defense caliber.
My own .357 Sigs are a P226 Elite (class act) and a .40 S &W BHP Practical with an EFK Firedragon coversion barrel in .357. My opinion is that the .357 SIG in a Hi-Power positively ROCKS!
To date I have over 1,000 rounds through both platforms and had ZERO stoppages. 850 rounds of those were my reloads.
While I've heard problems with bullet set back and other issues with the round I have experienced none of them. The Sig and Hi-Power just continue to eat the ammo and say "more please".
The only drawback I've seen to the round is still cost of ammunition. I overcame that by ordering a case of 125 Gr. Winchester Ranger SXT Law Enformcement loads (RA357SIGT).
I see this as a reloaders proposition unless you have the back door key to Ft. Knox...;-)
Sorry to hear the .40 is banned for usage down there. Ain't bureacrats wonderful...

Wes
 

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Mr. Bangbang, the HS2000 is the original model of what is now known as the Springfield XD series. As I understand it, Springfield bought the HS2000 and is marketing it with few changes from the original. I'm not sure about the extent of the modifications from the original HS2000 platform, but I doubt there's that much difference.

Currently I own two XDs, both in .45 ACP, one a "Service" or 4" model, and the other the "Tactical" 5" model.

I love em, as not only do they carry a nice, full load of one of my favorite calibers, but because of the all steel magazines, the grip is a good bit smaller than the .45 Glock, and thus much more comfortable to me. Reliability to date with several hundred rounds through each gun, is 100% with factory ammo, and though most of my shooting is with reloads, the only problems I've had were with semi-wadcutter bullets. With round nose or truncated cone lead bullet loads, it's pretty boring shooting them, since they go BANG every time, eject the spent casing and chamber another.

Somewhere down below in this section there are a couple of test report threads I started about the XDs. I'm sold on them.

For more info, you might try the HS2000 and XD Talk Forums , which are a wealth of information about the history, use, and modification of the XDs.

Hope this helps.

Here are my XDs. Both have been modified with the addition of night sights, with Meprolights on the Tactical, and Tru Glo Tritium Fiber Optics (TFO) on the Service model.

 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hello guys and thanks for the interesting info.

As by now you have probably already guessed Mr two guns from reading Mr LelandRays comments, the XD you talk about using in the past is in fact the HS2000-XD Springfield i am referring to.

thanks for your pics and links too Mr LelandRay.

as you may remember this gun was originally manufactured in Croatia and imported by Springfield USA. far as i can tell from the website i quoted earlier one of the main changes to this gun is the addition of the accessory rail.

I have not heard much about this round as my old hornady reloading book is 3rd edition and does not include info on the .357Sig. i thought maybe having a necked round would present more load problems but from what you guys say the opposite seems to be true, and perhaps more case wear on reloads but i really have no idea? however it sounds like it is in fact a very reliable caliber.
interesting to note the US agencies moving toward this round over the 40cal.

we use no lead projectiles at work. all our ammo is reloaded using Teflon coated projies. this makes it much safer for us to handle large quantities of ammo and less fouling in the range guns. some of the guns get a lot of use before they are put in the cleaning machine.

i have a feeling the models available in AUS have the TFO sights so that is a bonus... I just re read the above mentioned website and realized that the only model legal in AUS must be tactical model, i think. our minimum barrel length in AUS is 120mm for semi auto because a barrel length of only 115 mm is too easy to conceal the weapon.... whoops sorry about that hope you didn't fall off your chairs. true! mmmm......say no more. that is why you have a Glock 17A the (A) means this model is for Australia with a slightly longer barrel. go have a look at the website!

by all accounts the .357Sig certainly sounds like the way to go as the 40cal is not an option. but as far as the gun goes it would still be a toss up between a good ol 1911 model .. oh the pain of it all hehehe.

anyway ill let you my thoughts on the .357Sig HS 2000 compared to the 40cal Glock after Saturday.

cheers Guys. bang bang.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hello Guys,
just got back from work. as i stated in the earlier part of this post it was my intention to put the .40cal Glock up against the .357Sig HS-2000. well fun was had by all (namely me lol). I discovered some interesting things.

As stated by you guys the .357 did prove to have a little less recoil and obviously less muzzle jump. so because i have not pumped out 50 gazzillion rounds in my short hand-gunning life span the .40cal was a little more fun to shoot. However for the serious competition shooter i guess the .357would have a slight advantage.

as you can see in the comparison picture the "rake" angle on the butt of each gun is different. For my liking the HS wins hands down. the Glock being on more of an angle felt a little "odd" the HS fits the natural shape of my hand better with even pressure from the lower end of the butt right up to the top where it rests on the palm between thumb and fore finger. therefore has a more comfortable feel over all and gave a quicker sight picture from holster to target. I would suggest that with sustained firing an ache would develop in the wrist much quicker with the Glock than the HS.

Now don't get me wrong here, this is just my personal opinion and it may differ for people with bigger hands or different shooting styles. also if anyone can give any further insight to a possible advantage of having a greater rake angle it would be nice to hear from you.




One other thing i like about the HS is it has a polished metal clip rather than plastic. I'm not a big fan of plastic magazines as i feel a metal one will last much longer, especially for the comp shooter who drops them in the dirt during a shoot.

\


admitted my grouping was rather lousy as i was in a bit of a rush (probably just too excited..hehehe) and i forgot to photograph the target. (very conveniently don't you think lol). at 10 yards i fired 5 rounds from each gun at a time for a total of 30 rounds each. the glock produced a uniform pattern of about 7 inches and the HS gave a tighter pattern of about 5-1/2 inches. my guess is because the HS fits my hand better, also the HS was brand new and the Glock is a police practice gun.

Oh by the way the guns i used for the actual test had barrels of equal length.

all in all the HS felt better to me, so for my money id go the HS over a Glock and as far as caliber goes i have to chose the .357anyway as .40cal is illegal in Australia.

cheers BB.
 

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Howdy Mr. Bangbang,

Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us after doing your hands-on comparison. Like you, I think if I were going to buy a non-steel framed pistol, and my choices were a Glock or the HS/XD, I too would prefer the HS/XD. But as I am fond of saying, that is simply a Ford-Chevy issue to me. Folks have the choice and can drive/buy whichever brand suits them best.

For you it does indeed sound like the HS fits your hand and let you shoot it a bit better too. That makes sense to me really, and bears out my experience with shooters over the years. When I have had a co-worker who kept saying this gun does not feel right to me, I would grab a few other brands and let them try out others. Normally they found one or two others they thought fit them much better. Their resulting targets were better too.

As you get to try them out more over time, please continue to share your thoughts with us. Of course, if you do elect to buy an HS, then you will owe us a range report too.

I have always grinned on the drive to work, when I have really enjoyed my job. From the sound of things, you may be grinning on the drive there too, lol. Shucks sir, they even pay you to be around guns and shoot them, along with the free ammo. A rough job, but someone has to do it - right.

Enjoy things Mr. Bangbang,

twoguns
 

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I remember seeing the HS 2000 at the SHOT in 1996 (?) and thinking "Great! Just what the world needs - another polymer wonder nine." They are cheap and popular in IDPA circles and they appear to work very well if not Glock well. Recently they have been replaced in a lot of holsters with S&W MPs of various descriptions.

Here, the State Police and the City PD are both armed with 357 SIG and they appear to generally "Get their man" to corrupt a phrase. I have yet to hear of any come backs. However, the blast is obnoxious and I have heard of training issues with them. Finally, I have also heard of dynamic disassembly at the firing line. The ammo folk blame the gun folk and reverse.
That is what I have picked up locally. I note that no one I know reloads for it and the brass stays on the ground.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hi gents,
yes you are correct Mr two guns. i don't think Ive ever had a job where i enjoy the drive to work, stay back after work and go in on my day off, can't understand why they are paying me he he. (better go see my doctor- something must be wrong lol).

the most enjoyable part of my job is seeing a newbie off the street who has never seen a gun before looking a bit nervous during a training session :-/, and then seeing them after coming off the range with a smile from ear to ear


i have a saying. when you go fishing, it doesn't matter how many you catch, you just want to feel the fish bite just once more, the same is true for pulling the trigger lol.

Hello Mr oberstlt, thanks for your comments. I am not familiar with the term dynamic disassembly at the firing line. i assume you mean the slide separates from the frame, nasty? has anyone else had this problem?

I'm glad you mentioned the SW M&P. we have a brand new version of that in 9mm too. So perhaps I'll compare these ones side by side as well if i get the chance.

since we took delivery of the HS-XD, three of our staff already claim they wish to purchase one of these pistols. As for me I'm still not 100% convinced about buying a "plastic gun" yet. Ive always been a build it tough like a V8 engine type of guy. not a build it light and fast like a turbo charged Japanese 4 cylinder.

I guess the thing is the only real way to tell is buy one and see how it preforms over time!

cheers BB.
 
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The XD feels like a proper handgun in my hand, the Glock just feels wrong. I have a 5" XD in .45ACP and it is a good piece so far. I may buy another in either 9mm or .40S&W... or maybe another .45???

The XD's mags are stainless steel, not polished.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
hello again, i was just surfing and found this post on another website. well worth the read!

http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/XD-9_Tactical.htm

I also happened to read the instruction manual that comes with the XD and it states you can fire the weapon under water to a range of 3 meters.

ye-ha, next time i go scuba diving ill strap one to my leg instead of a knife. so look out all you white pointers out there... hehehe!
 

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Dynamic disassembly occurs when at ignition, the darn thing just explodes. I have seen two Glocks and a XDP do this. I believe in all cases it was the product of bad reloading. In a steel gun it is less spectacular than in a poly.

While tis true that I am an old fat man with a preference for M1911, BHPs and S&W roundguns, I own and operate polys as well (simply for the cost I can assure you). Here the Glocks, XDPs, Sigmas and now M&Ps are common as dirt. They work but you have to be careful with reloading. Very careful.
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Yes i totally agree with you on that one,

just last week we where on range practicing on steel poppers. one of the staff had a friend who was new to guns using her brand new Glock 17 9mm. she had a jam up and could not understand why she could not chamber a round.

upon dismantle we found a "squib" had lodged in the barrel. it was so close to the breach it prevented the next round from chambering.
as a novice shooter the girl had not noted the last round to be faulty.
extremely lucky! I'm guessing if it was just a few fractions of an inch further down the tube we would has seen a catastrophic failure. ???

As for myself my re-loader has an alarm on it to warn me if no powder has been thrown, well worth the $100 or so extra dollars i think.

BB
 

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For what it's worth, I have an XD-9, "duty" model, and my wife has a Glock 19. I guess I'm one of those "odd" people who can't really see a dimes worth of difference in them.

The difference in the grip angle isn't a big deal. One feels like a Glock, the other feels like an XD. I shoot one just as well as the other. So does my wife, although she says she prefers the Glock, simply because it's "her" gun. She bought it with no imput from me so she's rather proud of the fact that it was "her" decision. Neither of them has ever malfunctioned.

I used to think her Glock was a lot smaller than my XD, and had considered selling the XD, and buying another G-19 just because it was "so much smaller." Then I held the two side by side, and found out there really isn't much difference. The Glock is smaller, but nowhere near as much as I would have thought just looking at them seperately. Today I carry the XD, and she carries her Glock. We swap them off at the range.
 

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Bangbang-I now always carry a short length of brass rod with me for squibs. They don't happen often but every now and then it can save a session. I also use the powder checkers in my larger progressive presses. The real danger is double charges. Always use a fluffy powder and watch what you are doing. It is much harder on poly guns than steel.

Finally, I concur with the Man from Chancellorsville. Between the Glocks, XDPs, Sigmas, Steyr M9s and M&Ps, I can't really see a lot of difference either. Generally look for the one that fits the juncture of your hand and your pocket book best. There are other considerations involving the cost of mags and availability of holsters.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
all very interesting points.
thanks for the tips. Our club always has a rod on hand to remove squibs but it might be worth putting one in my kit just incase.
my loader has an alarm for both low and double charges, (Dillon progressive 650 from memory)

also at the end of the day hand guns are like cars, if you like the style the feel, and they seem to be well built and reliable and economical to run then its the one for you. in other words it will always be personal choice.

i think however even for those of us who can only afford to buy one or two guns it would be wise to gain experience with as many as possible. you just never know which one will be at arms length when the need arises?

the other issues of course is when guns are so difficult to aquire due to complicated licencing processes we need to do as much research as possible to avoid ending upp with a gun we don't like!

BB
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
If anyone is still following this thread i noted today after field stripping the glock and the XD how much difference there is between the rails.

the top frame is the Glock and the bottom the XD. as highlighted in red you can see how much shorter and narrower the rails are on the glock frame compared to the XD.

I'm trying not to rubbish the Glock as i have had little experience with them but it seems from an engineering point of view the XD would be much stronger and therefore would be more reliable.

i must stress however that it is just my personal opinion.


Cheers BB
 
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