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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I think reliability is a premier, if not the premier, criterion of a gun used for defensive purposes. The only criterion I can think of to match it is being able to repeatedly hit what I am aiming at. Size of the bullet, velocity, expansion/penetration, etc would seem to be second-tier considerations.

So, obviously, one should shoot enough rounds of the ammo one intends to use through a gun to convince one's self that it is reliable. My question is, how many rounds is that?

I used to work with reliability issues with military systems, so I can go back to my old statistical notes and books and probably come up with some number I can be happy with, but am wondering if someone has been down this path already.

Mr. Camp mentions "several hundred rounds" in his post on his new creation -- obviously he's become independently wealthy thru selling his BHP and 1911 treatises and can afford to have pallets of ammo delivered to his house!
(But what do the neighbors think?
)

One would also need to include all the modes and configurations, ie. rapid fire, all magazines intended for use, with and without weapon lights if you use them, etc.

It would seem to me that one would need fewer rounds to qualify a revolver versus a semi-auto. I have both, and carry both - I generally have put a two- to three-hundred rounds through the semi autos, 50 to 100 thru the revolvers before I was satisfied, and I have tracked every round on every gun since "qualification" so I am even more convinced of their reliability now. But should I be satisfied?

And of course when i get a new magazine, or new ammo, or (joy of joys) a new gun, I need to "qualify" the new item.

I started reloading years ago when I realized that every time I pulled the trigger I was sending a dime or a quarter, or sometimes a 50-cent piece or more down range. However, I want to carry only factory produced ammo for "serious" purposes, so reloading only helps on the practice side.

Any thoughts, anyone?

elb
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Dang it, I put my reliability post in the wrong section -- I meant to put it in the General Questions section. Maybe some kind administrator can fix my boo-boo.

Sorry!

elb
 

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Hello,

As far as how many rounds with Zero Malfunctions before I feel confident in a gun is, 200 rounds for an auto and 30-36 rounds for a revolver. This may seem a little too trusting to some, but, I'm actually a very non-trusting person, but this is all it's takes to build my trust in a pistol or revolver... This does NOT mean that I'm not afraid that it will never break or malfunction, it just means that I have a secure feeling that it's not gonna be with the next few mags or cylinders of ammo.
 
G

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Gents,

Reliability? Mas Ayoob recommends 400 rounds of your chosen load. Hmmm, he must have the back door key to Ft. Knox...

Personally, I would like to see 200 rounds fired to test reliability of the weapon and all carry magazines. Again, spendy, but worth it, IMHO. Peace of mind has got to be worth something.

Revolvers? 50 Rounds of the chosen load.

Any changes to the weapon and start over.

One option might be to duplicate the duty load as closely as possible. Same componets as the factory, if possible. NEW brass! This will give a fairly good approximation of how the reliability is for a given load, but Shoot at least 50-100 rounds of the actual factory stuff.

Just my humble opinion for what it's worth.

Wes
 

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Interesting question. I went back over the list and analyzed my feelings about each piece, compared to how many rounds are through it. I found my confidence level vs. rounds fired varied a lot depending on circumstances.

G19: Total confidence. This was my first Grock and they weren't that common back then. Took a long time to satisfy myself it was gonna work.

20k or so rounds, mostly ball. Couple of cases of 147 Hydra-shoks. I know better ammo is available nowadays but the gun has a good history with this load and I get the warm fuzzies when I carry it.

Changing ammo would require some rechecking. I've actually started this proceedure already since Federal are such jerks in the way they discontinue ammo. (When they dropped the Nyclads, they waited for the pipeline to dry up before dropping it from the catalog. This way the VP who made the decision doen't look bad from a flurry of last-minute orders.)

When I picked up a new mag last week I ran a 30 rds of hollowpoint and a box or two of ball through it before adding it to the mag pile.

Based on this experience, any new Grocks I get I tend to trust after a fewer number of rounds than other weapons would require. I basically confirm function with the chosen ammo and make sure there's no obvious problems.



Combat Commander: If I'd kept it I'd prolly still be pouring ammo (and $$) through it trying to trust the blasted thing. It didn't work when I got it, didn't work when I sold it (along with the parts to fix it yet again) and couldn't be counted on to function for more that a few hundred rounds before needing to be fixed, and rechecked with a couple hundred rounds of carry loads. Which brought the cycle full circle and we started over. again. And again.

Darned shame. I shot it well, it handled great, had $$ invested in forestrap stippling and sights. Point is, it would take a LOT more rounds trouble-free to trust this one.



Colt .380 PP: Not a serious carry piece; reserved for occasions requiring dressup. After a few years of shooting it now and again I trust it 99.99% to empty one mag of Silvertips without a jam from a clean gun. Not a biggie since I only have one mag. :(

I also know that somewhere in a box of USA/UMC ball it's gonna start messing up. WinClean and old Super-X ball do a bit better as they burn cleaner.

Beretta 21 (.25ACP): Same deal; one mag of Winchester pellet-point from a clean gun will work. More is iffy.

S&W Hand Ejectors: Box (or two at most) to verify that my mechanical inspection was correct and see where it hits and I'm good to go.

A lot has to do with having owned more HE's than any other type handgun. Also with a revolver there's no dynamic feed/eject cycle so most of the functions can be checked in the shop. Range work verifies that it will indeed bust a primer every time and will function when hot and dirty. The latter is an important point. Revolvers can test fine in the shop but get stiff when they warm up from firing.

.22 Hand Ejectors are a special case, in that (like all .22's) they can have ignition issues.

Have an neat old Dick Special that has seen a lot of miles and was being carried a little until I had a single misfire. The chamber had not lined up. This one is back on the 'fun but no carry' list til I figure out if it was due to mechanics or operator error.

BHP: This one is a recent acquisition and is still in process. Basically I began trusting it after a few hundred rounds of HP, with another 50 (10 HP) per mag.

Partially this is because the piece has a reputation for reliability that if it works for that long it prolly is OK.

Only failure to feed was with a 147 USA truncated cone. Weird profile and humped ramp.

147 and 124 H-S, 115 Silvertips and USA HP, Remington L9MM1B 115gr and Golden Sabre +P 124's are all 100% so far.

Whew! Didn't mean to get so windy. Writing this has got me to thinking about the subject a bit more and I may post an addendum later.


Regards,

Pat
 

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I really like for the guns to work perfect out of the box and stay that way.

I would say 500 malfunction free rounds is my preferred number. I'm not independently wealthy be any stretch of the imagination(even my own!). But 500 rounds of ammunition is a reasonable price to pay to ensure that your gun is capable of firing everytime you squeeze the trigger.

One malfunction at the end of 200 round range session I might let go, but another malfunction fresh out of my holster or half way through the first box of ammo and the count will have to restart and the gun will be started back over until it proves itself capable of going bang everytime.

-Rob
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks Sockman, for fixing my posting location. ;)

So, let's summarize what we see so far...

Shooter....................SemiAuto..................Revolver
Me...........................200.........................100
Sockman...................200..........................36
Wes.........................200..........................50
pff........................hundreds..............Box or 2 (100?)
RandomMan...............500..........................??
Mas Ayoob................400..........................??

I gather from everyone's comments that we've all used the TLAR<sup>*</sup> methodology to select the number of rounds. This has bugged me for awhile, I may have to go research what the military has done for small arms. My military experience was with little electronic things (e.g. GPS) that aided the big flying things (e.g. B-52s) that dropped noise-making things (e.g. 500 lb Mk82s). We usually looked for as long a MTBF<sup>**</sup> as we could get. Not sure how the small arms side of the house worked.

Some noted some factors to consider besides round-count -- e.g. cleanliness of the weapon, heat from firing, after being stored/holstered. My favorite check with a revolver is to make sure it works when I am shooting as fast as I can - have found this reveals problems with the cylinder latching. (of course this is more about the gun than the ammo, but need one to test the other).

Thanks all for the comments! Hope I get some more.

elb

*TLAR - old Air Force engineering methodology for things that require high degree of precision: "That Looks About Right!"
** Mean Time Between Failure = average time until the widget craps out again
 

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Since I don't really have a carry revolver, I haven't given it much consideration. But for a revolver I believe 100 or so trouble free rounds would probably be sufficient since the action is more simplified and less likely to jam.

I would however require much more than 100 rounds in order to be proficient with a double action defensive revolver. I digress though, that's another topic for another time.

-RM
 

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Didn't mean to be vague about the numbers.

I just meant that I don't have a hard-and-fast number that I go by. It depends on circumstances, history with that piece, history with similar ones, and in the case of requal, how good it did before.

Sometimes I just get a sense that something is different, and I'll keep at it til I get a better feeling. Or not. I had a G22 once that I never felt right about, though it never hiccuped once in 400-500 rounds. And I normally trust Grocks more than other makes. Finally swapped it.

It's also not a binary thing, that at XXX rounds I go from no trust to totally trust. For me its more of a gradual process and an ongoing one. I guess I subconciously grab the piece that at that point matches the percieved threat level.

As I noted for the casual carry pieces, I'm a lot more tolerant as long as I can pretty much count on the first mag from a clean gun.

Were I deliberately going in harms way I would demand total reliability, based on a case of ammo _minimum_, preferably 2 cases. You're going to burn this much ammo getting ramped up for the job anyways. For this kind of work, someone else is paying for it.

With my muchly reduced income these days I hunt for bargains on ammo.



Regards,

Pat
 

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Hi there all,

Not to be vague, but I believe that in most cases that most people believe that it takes 200 rounds just to break in a Semi-Automatic pistol for functioning.

Any FTF or FTE after 200 rounds, than you have mechanical problems with the firearms not related to break-in.

I would suggest that 400-500 rounds would be the range to deem a semi-auto as realiable enough for CCW carry.
 
G

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Some may call me crazy at the end of this. For breakin purposes, yes I fire between 200 and 400 rounds, half of which may well be my own handloads. If I'm having consistent failures of any kinds, chances are something ain't quite right with the pistol, and it's time to get my hands dirty. If not - she's good to go. There is not a firearm on this planet that is not subject to possible malfunctions. One should always be prepared to initiate immediate action in clearing a malfunction should it occur - placing 100% trust that your piece simply can't fail because you've fired umpteen thousand rounds through it with nary a hitch does not add up (not in my book anyway.)

That said, I'm confident enough in my Combat Commander to carry it with a variety of ammo that has proven consistent. This includes Cor-Bon's 200gr +P JHP, several of Winchester's JHP loads, and any ball round I've ever encountered. I'll run 3 mags through it with any "new" load to see if she behaves, and at that point, I'm not afraid to carry said load if need be.

Once the arm has proven itself capable of proper function - my round count to trustable enough is quite low by comparison. That said, always be prepared to initiate immediate action and clear a stoppage - regardless of how many failure free rounds you've got through your piece. My M16A2 has never once jammed on me, and I have some 6000 rounds (live and blank) through it - I'm still always ready to slingshot that charging handle, slap the mag up hard, do whatever needs to be done to keep lead going downrange. On the other hand, I fired the M9 qualification course w/ an M9 that failed to fire no less than 23 times. I still qualified expert. Situational awareness, and competence will in my opinion serve you better than a stratospheric round count. Trust yourself, machines break.

Anthony
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
More interesting comments...

- Good point by Anthony -- can't count on absolute reliability, everything has a bad day sooner or later, so know how to handle it. I had it vaguely in mind but didn't articulate it.

- In thinking thru this a little more, I think one reason for higher round counts and/or relying on the overall history of the gun is a (perhaps) subconcious desire to make sure the handgun works under various circumstances. If you stand in the same spot and shoots two hundred rounds two-handed, one doesn't really accomplish this, but if breaking up the test over different days, different weather, maybe go hunting with it like Mr. Camp does alot, then you can develop some faith in it.

- I also tend to think that reliability problems with modern (recently produced) handguns will show up pretty fast. My example: bought a new Kahr P-9 -- after breaking it in with 200 rounds, still had FTEs with EVERY magazine-full, all brands of ammo (except, interestingly enough, the Blazer aluminum-cased ammo). Sent it to factory, all springs replaced and some other bits and pieces, now it rocks -- except for a couple burps with Corbon 100 and 115 gr +P ammo. But I've only fired 20 rounds of each, so am not ready to pronounce it unsuitable for +P ammo. (Silvertips work great tho, 134 rounds no probs.)

- Ran across this testing procedure, "Personal Defense Ammunition Functional Reliability Test for SemiAutomatic Handguns" http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs25.htm. The website that it is on seems to have been active between 1998 and 2000, at least I don't see any updates after that, and I have no idea who the "Firearms Tactical Institute" really is, but their procedure is interesting.

Basically they test for FTE and FTF, 100 rounds FMJ for basic functional check of the gun, twice thru each magazine with FMJ from different shooting attitudes, then do it again with the defense ammo. Essentially, three failures of same type= nogo.

I like the organization of this test -- it gives some "purpose" to the rounds I am shooting, not just shooting until it feels like "enough". I would tweak it some -- add some environmental conditions (hot/cold day, dusty) since I thrash around in the Texas brush quite a bit, and both one-handed and two handed shooting, and I would definitely track misfires, but overall I like the framework.

- As an interesting side note, I ran across the Army's reliability requirements for the "family of weapons" that will replace the M-16, M-4, and SAW (http://www.murdoconline.net/archives/002065.html). The Army solicitation groups failures of "essential functionality" as Class I (can be corrected by the shooter in under 10 seconds), Class II (can be corrected in between 10 seconds and 10 minutes with equipment on hand), and Class III (cannot be corrected by the shooter). The requirements for the basic rifle version are
-- 18,000 Mean Rounds Between Essential Function Failure (MRBEFF) for Class III failures, and
-- 2,300 MRBEFF for Class I and II failures combined.

Thanks again all.

elb
 

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I'm going to bump this old thread to the top.

I'm wondering how the original respondents feel now in these days of insane prices and shortages of ammo. And of course our newer members may not have seen it.

In my own case, there are a couple more HiPowers that are still building trouble-free round counts. ;)

The various Grocks have continued to be reliable. The G21 had a breakage (due to a previous owner) and needed a trip to Symrna, but this is less worrisome to me. Things break.

Another Combat Commander has come and gone. Wouldn't work to suit me.

I've gone to second-tier loads that I can afford to shoot a lot of, rather than buy a box of premium and plink///errr///practice with bulk ball.



Regards,

Pat

[edit to correct tpyo's]
 

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Way back, when I could see my feet, the Rigger at the shed told us to bring the parachutes back if they did not work. Bit of a joke that but the point was, he (now she) could be asked to jump with any of them for QA/QC purposes.

I am an active shooter (IDPA that is) and I tend to shoot one gun for a year. Last year I shot an old Colts M1911 45 ACP for at least two (mainly 3) matches per month for nearly 12 months. Each match used from 50 to 100 rounds per match. I had three malfunctions over all this shootage utilizing REM-UMC bulk ammo. All were shooter induced to include the practice rounds I made. I am confident in that old gun. I expect things to break and malfunction. I estimate in matches alone it about 3 in 2250.

This year I am going to shoot the Glock 34. While rare, I have seen them malfunction too and I expect it to choke at some point. I have also had my round guns fail, my BHP-35 and my PPS all hiccup. It happens.

Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch always told us that while one may be none, two is always one! Careful gun carriers do carry a back up. I am a bit more casual about it.

But, the moral to this is to test your guns either in competition or a structured practice. I shoot reloads when I practice (not very often), "white box" in competition and premium carry ammo only to ensure reliable function. When it ages, I shoot it up in practice and then replace it. LEOs routinely shoot up carry ammo in qualification (quarterly or semiannually). While my carry ammo is not as exposed to the elements as theirs, I believe in rotating it with fresh stock at least annually.
 

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Howdy folks,

Well some of you folks know that I believe in living in an "magazine rich" environment. But like most things in life, that along with most other firearms issues I have decided, have been based upon my personal experiences over the years. More rarely they also get based upon situations that I have personally observed but not experienced first hand.

Even when I was a detective back in my youth, I routinely worked alone. If I was lucky I could find another body or two I trusted to go through a door I had kicked, but sometimes even those activities were done solo from necessity (certainly not desire).

But my point is, life experiences convinced me I needed to know without any doubts my handguns and long guns would function as designed. Since my starting salary as a local was $6,015 per year, that did not provide a lot of income to purchase tons of my chosen duty loads with for function testing. Even on that yearly salary, we had to supply our own duty weapon, and all of our duty, qual, and practice ammo.

Reloading was the only solution that would let me do anything close to what I wanted to do round wise. I quickly realized if I reloaded practice rounds that as closely as possible duplicated my chosen carry loads, that was the next best thing to shooting all duty rounds for function testing.

So for example if my chosen carry round for a model 66 was the Speer 140 gr JHP, .357 mag, then I used the Speer 140gr JHP projectiles in magnum brass to duplicate my carry load as best as possible. This could still be expensive, but it clearly did not hurt as much as shooting only factory duty rounds would have to my wallet.

As I initially carried only Smith revolvers, my personal required round count before I carried a new one on or off duty was not as excessive as I require these days. I wanted to have at least 300 error free duty and duty level reloads through one before it earned my "trust" for serious usage.

These 300 rounds were fired for sight alignment, and then in both timed and rapid fire, using both two and one hand only, including weak hand only shooting. I even did some extreme things for that time period - firing the weapons sideways and even upside down to confirm angles would not cause unexpected problems.

When I added pistols as duty and off duty weapons, as I viewed their design to generally be a bit more complex than that of a Smith revolver, I added additional rounds to my personal safety level. With a semi, I wanted at least 500 duty free rounds before it got special usage status. I would simply divide these 500 rounds as equally as I could through the magazines I owned for each weapon.

If I purchased a new magazine, I wanted at least 100 trouble free rounds through it before I would add it to my serious mag collection. But once I made detective, which is when I was first able to add a pistol to my handgun options, my salary went up a small bit, which made buying reloading components a bit easier to justify in my mind as well. So this higher round count was easier for me to handle financially.



By the time I moved up the federal level of law enforcement, I grinned like a cat with 3 canaries in my mouth, when I discovered they were basically going to hand me all the ammo I wanted to shoot, and would never bat an eye when doing so. Of course, being the instructor who possessed the keys to the ammo supply, did a great deal in improving their attitude as well, lol.

But seriously, I have always been lucky in working for federal agencies who did not object to maintaining a large ammo inventory, and had policies that were very generous in the number of practice rounds (duty loads) that could be issued to each shooter each month if requested. My only real shock when placed in this enviable situation was that very few agents ever both to take advantage of it.

In 1990 I went to work for an agency that actually had a stand alone firearms unit, with staff instructors and agency armorers that I could actually meet and discuss things with. Since I had already attended FITP (Firearms Instructor Training Program) at FLETC, I was actually blessed to train any federal employee who was armed. They simply had to supply me with a copy of their qualification course, and I could run them and complete their certification score sheet which would bless them for 3 months.

Most firearms instructors were trained by their specific agency which limited them to only being able to certify their agency employees. So when I joined my folks were quick to send me to the firearms unit for the mandatory training course to bless me to be "totally golden" for them as well, both ways.

That gave me my first chance to meet all of my agency's armorers and sit down over a few beers at night, and pick their collective brains. All of these guys had worked for at least 20 years as gunsmiths for various major firearms manufacturers, before being hired by our outfit. So they were clearly gunsmiths in my mind, and not simply "parts changers".

Their collective judgment for our issued handguns, which were primarily pistols, was that if a weapon was going to malfunction from an improper or broken part, it was most likely to do so within the first 800 rounds fired downrange.

So it was in 1990, that I upped my personal round count through each carry pistol to 800 rounds. The only real difference now was I was able to use 800 duty rounds issued by my agency to test any new pistol I acquired for work purposes.

These days I am back to having to use my original system - a combination of both carry rounds I have purchased, combined with reloads that as closely as possible duplicate that round. I still use the 800 rounds figure, but it is now split roughly 50-50 between factory and rounds I have loaded in new components.

In 9mm ammo, I fell into a great deal on buying the Win 124gr FMJ Nato loads, so I have an abundance of them still. I use those to supplement the number of rounds I fire through each pistol that I have a 9mm barrel for, but these are not included in my intial 800 round figure.

Sorry I got so long winded on this one. I was trying to think of any handgun I had used in my system over the years that had given me any functioning issues. So far I have not been able to recall one. But when I am debating an issue, I have learned I generally tend to type a bit more too, lol.

So to summarize my basic rounds fired:
revolvers = 500 rounds of both factory and factory equivalent hand loads
pistols = 800 rounds of both factory and factory equivalent hand loads
new pistol magazines = 100 rounds of above before used for defensive purposes

I will simply echo some points others have mentioned, as from my personal experiences they are relevant. Vary the way you fire your rounds, to try to encompass as many variables as possible. Deliberate aimed fire, timed fired, rapid fire, two-hand, one-hand, angles the weapon is held in for the above, and climate extremes when possible.

If you add anything to your platform, do not assume since the gun has been 100% previously, you will be good to go without additional testing. During some briefings being held with DEA agents located in our area, for dual agency ops, they were very quick to show off their newly issued tactical lights for their issued Glock pistols. After the formal brief was over, I asked their primary instructor if adding the tactical lights had caused any functioning issues, and he took a bit then said, well none we have noticed yet. I will keep you in the loop.

He called me roughly two weeks later and said - wanted to let you know, we have banned the use of our tactical lights until further notice now. We had to qual last week, and I decided to make folks shoot at least once course with their tactical lights installed. Every pistol was giving us malfunctions with the lights attached. When you asked me in the brief, I realized we had never test fired any of our issued handguns with the lights installed - we just assumed since they were Glock tactical lights, they would be worry free.

Their firearms unit at Quantico did some testing and decided their issued load was not quite hot enough with the lights attached to provide total functioning. At that point they obtained some hotter loads and decreed if a tactical light was going to be used on the pistol, the hotter ammo had to be used. That combo brought them back up to total reliablity with their pistols. But I think that is an excellent example of how adding something to your existing platform CAN have an affect on how it will function. There is truly only one way to find out - shoot it enough with that new item to convince yourself it is reliable.

Excellent thread, and one that I think probably makes all of us think through our current system. As we read more answers, some of us may even be rethinking our systems too.

twoguns
 

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Thanks guys.

Interesting and very instructive that adding a light changed functioning. If I had to guess the added mass made the dust cover flex and rub something under recoil. Brings home the fact that ANY change in setup no matter how small needs to be checked out with live fire.

I know I've had to rethink (or at least consider the possibility) of proving new pieces when ammo is so bloody scarce.

Right now people are grabbing every box of 9mm they can find and one local Walmart doesn't even bother to shelve it. They set the case on the counter and its sold in minutes. I've not seen any of my preferred load (L9MM1B) locally in several months.

While I've no plans to ever carry it (other than maybe for dressup) the old 1950 FNHP had 250 JHP run through it. Good enough methinks for a piece that will likely never be carried.

I've been building round counts through a batch of new magazines. I may have to fudge and use ball for the last couple of runs unless more JHP shows up in stores.

I had been building a round count in the 39-2 acquired last fall, but this work is on hold pending a new extractor.

I still tend to trust resolvers after fewer rounds. As long as I can fire one panic-fast and get it _hot_ and dirty, I'm good with 100 or so rounds.


Regards,

Pat
 

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I'll give you my short answer on this one.

I'll say this as a qualifying statement, I don't own shares in any ammo manufacturer, nor do I have an employer - private or public sector providing my with bountious amounts of free ammo. I have however, in the past been gainfully employed in the firearms industry and elsewhere where and intimate knowledge of firearms and ammunition and their use was part of the job.

With that, I personally believe that any revolver ammunition from the same lot as a box - assuming a premier manufacturer, that I've tested through the gun will be reliable. For semi-autos, I want to 'test drive' at least 100 rounds before I consider any ammo from the same lot to be reliable. Semis because the rounds are cycled into the firing chamber obviously need to be more precisely sized, etc.

Again, the caveats in both cases are same lot and a premium round from a first rate manufacturer such as Hornady, Cor-Bon, Speer, etc.

Regardless of whatever your test parameters may be; "MURPHY" NEVER SLEEPS. We are practicing our malfunction drills aren't we?
 

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Howdy folks,

Since ammo of any flavor appears to becoming more scarce and more expensive, now might be an excellent time to consider reloading, for those who do not already do so. If components are purchased in quantity, the cost per round comes down quite a bit, especially when compared to factory fodder.

Don't think because you are one reloader, you can not afford to purchase in quantity either. Simply get a couple of friends and fellow reloaders to go in together with you on larger orders. Just a suggestion, that has allowed me to fire many, many more rounds over they years than I would ever have been able to afford to purchase in factory loads.

As far as malfunction drills, yes sir I is, and hope everyone else is doing so as well. I have made up some "dummy rounds" in all of the various calibers I would fire - rounds assembled without primers or powder. It is even more help if shooting with a buddy, you have them load your mags for you. That way you do not know the number or sequence of dud rounds you will encounter.

Shucks, I often joke, that there is a reason I am an old fart now. Over the years I must have managed to do somethings correctly. Although I no longer expect to be kicking doors as I once did, while shooting I still continue to add one hand reloads into my shooting time as well.

Malfunction drills, one hand reloading using both strong and weak hand (slides locked to rear and slides closed), and any other practice beyond simply standing and shooting are just more survival tools in my view. I would far rather perfect a survival skill I never have to draw upon, then find myself in need of one I have not acquired.

Having been wounded by a round and in the midst of a gunfight is simply not the time in my view to try to talk myself through trying to do a skill I have never practiced.

Another survival skill we were required to teach was one called "officer down drills". It implied that you were either prone to make youself as small as possible, or while prone, you had been wounded to place you in the one hand/arm only mode. We required folks to fire from various postions while prone, including flat on their back and having to aim and fire at the target on their head side, towards their feet through their upraised knees, and while laying on both sides, as well as one handed prone. If wounded those were survival skills that might be real world, and again the time to learn them or at least become more acquainted with them was before they might be needed.

I personally see no problem in doing any of the various things others and I have discussed while building the round count on a specific platform. With ammo being as expensive as it is, why not put both your weapon and yourself though the paces while shooting to reach your individual "warm fuzzies" round count.

Just some suggestions to think about.

twoguns
 

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Two guns, as a documented 'Old Fart' myself I can atest to the adage, 'You don't get to old by being stupid and careless'. That means making to the golden years is another success story for us.
 

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Howdy Mr. Abninftr,

Yes sir, I do believe it is a success for me - one I had my doubts at times I would ever see, lol. Like you sir, I feel any of us who can earn the "old fart" status have been doing something right.

Most of us tend to be so surprised/shocked that we actually made it, we are more than willing to pass along tips/suggestions when we can as well.

This is an excellent thread, and really appreciate the contributions everyone is offering. Hopefully some other "wise gentlemen" (as I prefer to call every other "old fart" except myself, lol) will offer their thoughts on this one too.

twoguns
 
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