Handguns and Ammunition Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
G

·
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
The following was recently posted on another handgun forum by one "Zeke," a retired cop, gunsmith, M1911 pistolsmith and long-time handgun bullseye competitor (back to the 1950's and 60's) in New York. It was a part of a discussion on Glocks. The guy is extremely knowledgeable about handguns, especially pistolsmithing M1911's. (Been conversing with him for years.) Tell me what you think about it:


"With me, Glock got off on the wrong foot. From the beginning, their claim to fame was based on the public's fears, as in . . . these all plastic guns can be smuggled, undetected, thru security at airports, etc. All the terrorists will have them (none of this fact . . . . just fear) and they were put on the official "sh*t list" of most levels of Government. All the bad guys are going to have these and our police will be out gunned, havoc will run the streets, etc. Glock overcame this with a brillant bit of marketing. They offered them at less than cost to any Police Department that would equip the majority of the Officer's with the Glock 9mm . . . for less than $200 a unit! Governments at all levels jumped at this. It gave them a lever up in contract talks, allowed them to low ball things like medical benefits (saw it happen with 4 major PD's in NY, NYC, Nassau County, Suffolk County PD and Suffolk Co. Sheriff's office). The gun was adopted, not because it was good . . . but because it was cheap to purchase, maintain and allowed training with mil-surp ammo. The fact that the firearm was unproven . . . hell, it was even untested, but that didn't stop Glock from saying "it is the choice of major Police Agencies and is the weapon of choice!" It is the only handgun (to my knowledge) that can be fired by an accidental trigger pull with the safety on and engaged as designed. A correction was made by Glock by replacing a part in the trigger system that made the trigger more difficult to pull, it is called the New York City trigger. Top that off with their claim that the 9mm is ballistically superior to both the .38 spec and the .357 mag. Well, it is if you use the bottom of the scale for the .38/357 and the top for the 9mm. It was right about there that I became a "dinosaur." Didn't like the gun and like it even less that they were all to willing to work "Spin City" to sell their product . . . fact is some of the claims were just outright lies!"


This is certainly a much different view than we've gotten through the mainstream handgun media over the years.

Does anybody know of any case where Glocks were sold to a LE agency at much less than wholesale?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,579 Posts
Honestly? It sounds like a 1911 curmudgeon who is spinning the heck out of things. And who's just grumpy and wrong. Tech changes, and we've all seen many people who don't like it.

Glock 17s retailed for $285 when they came out in 1985 - I remember it well. $200 without the excise tax seems like a reasonable price for them to the PDs at that price point. (You know how LEO sales work, right? They buy for just over wholesale because they're buying in bulk, a dealer gets a chunk of mark-up, the guns get delivered right from the factory to the PD, and there's no excise tax involved - and THAT is a huge savings. I say this as someone who ran the paperwork on sales of over 1k guns like that to PDs when I managed a gun store.)


It is the only handgun (to my knowledge) that can be fired by an accidental trigger pull with the safety on and engaged as designed.
Has "Zeke" never seen a revolver? ???

I was managing a gun store when Glock got rolling, and I don't recall their ever having claimed that the 9x19 was ballistically superior to the .357 Magnum.

And Glocks do work. I don't care for them myself, but in my considerable experience they have fewer problems than 1911s.

Actually, Alan, I think it's a bit unfair of you to post these comments of Zeke's and ask for public criticism of them without allowing him to respond because, frankly, they don't strike me as well considered. If Zeke were to post such a thing where there were impressionable folks who didn't know better, I'd want to make sure the new folks knew that there were some factual inaccuracies being promulgated so I might respond - but at least he'd be able to defend his position. Here, without his involvement, I feel like I'm picking on him by tearing apart what I consider to be some foolish claims he's making.

Anyway, you asked what we thought - I think it sounds like a person who doesn't like new tech and wants to gripe about it for reasons unknown. I'm sorry to see people like this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,064 Posts
nevadaalan,

First let me say I am not a Glock fan. I never have been really. I was allowed by a Glock LEO sales rep to shoot both the 17 and 19 to my heart's content with his ammo at an indoor range I belonged to that was a few miles from their GA factory, back in the mid 80s. I think there were 6 of us from my office shooting them. Two guys wrote him checks and the rest said thanks but no thanks.

I have been required to carry one as a LEO, and still do not like the weapon, but again my reasons are both personal and professional. But I normally simply try to say in public postings that I simply do not care for the Glock, and am happy for anyone who does.

If a member wants to post comments about problems they have personally experienced with a specific weapon, or note problems they have encountered with that factory's customer service - as long as they are making those comments from personal experience, I see a benefit to them. Although I must admit, I much prefer reading a member's positive comments on a weapon or that factory's customer service. But to me both comments, offered from personal experience, are a benefit to our members.

I worked for a federal agency once and was forced to carry a Ruger SR737, after Ruger intentionally underbid Smith on .357 magnum revolvers that year attempting to gain the federal contract. GSA awared Ruger the contract that year, until the firearms instructors at FLETC wrote a joint letter explaining they could not teach proper trigger control to new hires in basic training with the "hump" that existed in Ruger revolvers. GSA killed the Ruger contract and Ruger threatened Congress with a law suit. Congress solved things by requiring smaller federal LE agencies to purchase the SR737 for issue.

Was I crazy about not being able to carry a Smith? Nope not really. But it is called business. I did not just explain that in an attempt to bash Rugers. I simply explained it to show that Glock is not the only manufacturer who practices "business".

Speaking personally as a member, it really bothers me to see you quoting someone else, rather than speaking from first hand experience here nevadaalan. As Erich pointed out, Zeke is not here to defend his position, be it right or wrong. You also note these are a part of his comments, so some folks might question how much out of context they might be. Again "Zeke" is not here to defend himself, in response to pro comments Glock fans may wish to make in response to this post.

Speaking simply as a member, I encourage folks to relate positive or negative experiences they have personally encountered with weapons and customer service. At the same time, I would personally rather see "bashing" or even posts that come very close to "bashing" left to other firearms forums, and not this one. Just my thoughts for what little they are worth.

twoguns
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
3,867 Posts
Hello. While the Glock is not my favorite handgun, most that I've seen did work reliably on police qualification courses. In my department, we furnished our own handguns but had pretty nice lattitude in what we purchased. Several officers purchased Glocks with the "LE Deal." I do not remember the very low price, but that marketing method was employed.

Best.
 

·
Regulator,
Joined
·
3,441 Posts
Gents,

I've owned Glocks, trained Glocks, and carried Glocks for a number of years. They work...that's about all I can say about them.
IMHO, they work TOO well. Transitioning departments have generally had a number of AD/ND's due to bad training syllabus's, poor holster/equipment designs, and simply the ease with which the pistol can fire.
Our own department has been transitioning for almost a decade and still is not done. New staff that is going through the state's DPSST/Academy courses are coming to us Glock trained. The older staff is not. Interestingly, in all the years we carried revolvers no one could remember an AD, but we've had 9 with the Glocks
If issued a Glock would I piss and moan? No, they work.
I do not think that they are a good platform for departments that give cursory/limited training that does not properly teach and ingrain the manual of arms that is required for the Glock.
Our issue pistol is the G22...our tactical teams gave up Sig 220's to move to this...? Ptuii!

Semper Fi,

Wes
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,399 Posts
Hi there,

I've owned several Glocks over the years and for the most part they were reliable.

I am not certain what the original LEO purchase price was on the majority of models, but recently I've certainly seen enough come into the LEA "turn in" program to be resold through stocking wholesalers. With price averages running about $369.00, there can't be a lot of margin in them.

I would have to agree with the inadequate training regieme that has allegedly led to the NY trigger and AD's. I am not quite convinced that they occured with any greater incidence than with previously used sidearms.

Wes, I just sold mine to finance my P-226R. I'm moving in the opposite direction.......

Chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14 Posts
Does anybody know of any case where Glocks were sold to a LE agency at much less than wholesale?
Get out your calculator.
2500 Glock 22 with night sights, new Safariland duty holsters, and 750 rds of training ammo per officer (approx 2100 officers). Price was a few dollars over $250,000 plus trade in of old S&W 5904/6904. The old S&W autos were on the market from dealers in the $325 range. Don't know what the dealers paid for them but figure it was somewhat less than the $325 since they were making a profit and would deal off the $325 price.
Below wholesale dealing is not unusual for Glock or any other gun maker. For that matter, any manufacturer. I know an 300 officer PD that had been carrying S&W 6906 and were looking to trade right after SIG came out with the 357 rd. SIG took their old 6906s and gave the PD new SIG 357s, new leather, and several hundred rds of training and duty ammo per officer. No cost. In addition, SIG said if the 357 rd didn't pick up that after 2 yrs SIG would convert all the PD's 357 barrels with .40s and provide duty ammo. That's a deal no PD could refuse.
It's not just guns but cars too. Chevy did the same kind of thing when they changed the body design in 1991. Dodge did it in the 80s. It's not unusual. It's called aggressive marketing and is as old as the hills. The companies use it as advertising and the civilian market follows along.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I have handled a couple of Glocks and the results were the same; bad grip angle, mushy trigger, and so so sights. Then I got to shoot these pistols and the afore mentioned shortcomings faded quickly. These pistols are shooters, they are certainly inferior in the trigger department to the 1911 SA, but these triggers are adequate for LE use and the pistol is extremely reliable.

Sound like I'm a Glock fan, no way. I like the way these guns shoot and have used them (I own two, 22 and 24L) to win some matches. This pistol needs a positive, manually operable safety like the 1911. Putting the safety on the tip of the trigger is a real bad idea.
 

·
Regulator,
Joined
·
3,441 Posts
Chris,

Ya gotta twist the knife, buddy? You sold your Glocks to finance the Sig 226R? Hmmm, may do the same. Am going to play with the cartridge in my HP THEN decide.
On the other hand the Sig 245 looks awful sexy!

Wes
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,399 Posts
Hello Wes,

No problem. I've also been wondering why so many Glocks are turning up on the LEA "turn in" program, what semi auto are they switching too?

Maybe its time to start an informal poll on the General Semi Auto discussion area?

If Glock is will to sell LEA their pistols at very low margins, there is probably an obvious answer to why?

I am assuming that it is to grow their market in the private sector, i.e. consumer sales with the reasoning that civilians will buy the same handgun used by LEA's, which is a "limitless" market vs. finite LEA contracts.

Chris
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Actually, Alan, I think it's a bit unfair of you to post these comments of Zeke's and ask for public criticism of them without allowing him to respond because, frankly, they don't strike me as well considered.
I respectively asked for comment ("Tell me what you think . . . ," not specifically criticism. If you feel a burning need to criticize, you can. It's still allowed on this forum. Whether his comments are "well considered," as in any posting, they may or may not be.



Speaking personally as a member, it really bothers me to see you quoting someone else, rather than speaking from first hand experience here nevadaalan. As Erich pointed out, Zeke is not here to defend his position, be it right or wrong. You also note these are a part of his comments, so some folks might question how much out of context they might be. Again "Zeke" is not here to defend himself, in response to pro comments Glock fans may wish to make in response to this post.
Except for a lead-in sentence, they are completely in context. Go to http://www.e-gunparts.com/forum/readreply.asp?rep=107818&qt=6838

If Zeke were to post such a thing where there were impressionable folks who didn't know better, I'd want to make sure the new folks knew that there were some factual inaccuracies being promulgated so I might respond - but at least he'd be able to defend his position. Here, without his involvement, I feel like I'm picking on him by tearing apart what I consider to be some foolish claims he's making.
You, "two guns" or any Glock fans can go to http://www.e-gunparts.com/forum/readit.asp?qt=68380&cat=5 and post any comment/criticism you want. It's a wide-open, un-moderated forum. Nobody will lock any threads or delete any postings. Everybody there has to defend themselves technically and morally. There are no moderators to ensure that nobody's feelings are hurt. What's posted there stays there forever. This guy was a cop and competitive pistol shooter before many that frequent this forum were born. Believe me, he can defend himself. If you and he disagree, that's what forums are all about.



Anyway, you asked what we thought.
Exactly. There's no reason for anybody to "go ballistic" over a request for commentary.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,399 Posts
Hello Gentleman,

Time out.

There's no need to get into a "heated" debate and no one needs to get on the defensive as far as "defending" their position. You can chose to respond or not to.

I will lock this topic.

Best to all,

Chris
 
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top