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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I talked to a friend who had been in a shooting with an armed suspect several weeks ago and thought there might be some helpful hints to pass on. The encounter happened at about 5 ft distance with the suspect raising his pistol up. My friend had a .357 Sig with the 125 gr Speer HP. 2 double taps center mass put the guy down on the ground, but the subject started to raise his arm with the pistol again and 1 more shot required to stop the suspect. My friend stated that he was a little surprised that it took so much to stop this guy. It just goes to show that even when using "magnum" type rounds that the bad guys don't always drop in their tracks and sometimes even a double tap is not enough. This is something to keep in mind in deciding your choice of carry weapon.
 

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Pistolpete, one of the problems I have with IDPA matches is the tendency to figure on two shots per target all the time. (Yes, I realize that IDPA is a competition, not tactical training.) The reason stated for the two-per-target is supposedly ease of keeping score. I say 'Bollocks!', to steal from our British friends. There should be some three (or more) per target stages, along with the occasional Mozambique/Failure to stop drills thrown in sometimes. And also perhaps some targets that are "wearing" shirts or plastic bags, etc., to obscure the scoring rings. Keeps you from getting too dialed in on doing things the same way time after time.

Fortunately there's one match director around these parts who thinks a bit differently than most, and mixes things up some. His matches I regard as good practice/training.
 

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Hello. Yes, it is surprising, but is not at all uncommon. I'm glad your friend survived. Hopefully, the bad guy has been permanently "rehabilitated." Most of the time, I think we are wise to expect our shots to fail to immediately stop violent aggression. It seems that the mechanism of collapse sadly requires time at a time when seconds seem like eternity.

Best.
 

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What the other guy had isn't very important. What is important is that he didn't get to use it because the good guy didn't stop thinking and acting just because he had to good hits COM. That's the lesson to be learnt here. Act, assess, act.
 
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I know it's not tha timportant to this situation. I just try to keep track of what criminals are using. I have some ideas about how and where they get guns, and I'm trying to find out if I'm right.
 

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To add just a little to my earlier post, it would sure be nice to practice/train with reactive targets that don't always do what you'd expect.

Bought a steel target once that was shaped like human head/upper torso. It sat on top of a post, and a good hit would take it backwards and it would slide down the post---sometimes! If the post and base weren't placed on good solid ground, the behavior of the target became pretty unpredictable. I kinda like that idea, but of course if you put something like that in any sort of match, shouts of "No fair" would be heard. For training purposes though, whoever said life was fair? (My friend the gunscribe Rick Miller's favorite phrase btw.)

Point being, putting something out-of-the-ordinary in your training regimen, it might just save your hide.
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The bad guy was armed with a .45 acp. I do not know the make or model. It is also unknown at this time if he was on drugs or not. I did ask my friend if he used the front sight or not and he said that they were so close that he just pointed and shot center mass as the bad guy was raising his gun and had told family that he would not be taken alive. No time for delay there and training kicked in.
 
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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hmm... .45, huh? That's a scary thought. It used to be that if a crook had a gun, it would usually be a smaller caliber. Granted, any gun is a dangerous thing, in the wrong hands, but I'd hate to think of crooks starting to upgrade their firepower.
 

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Sad to say it is not surprising (at least not if one spends a lot of time reviewing these things).

I have cases on file where a subject was still on his feet after so many rounds that folks think I am exaggerating (I've told myself a million times not to exxagerate
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While I don't quite get into advocating that one empty his pistol into a subject...some folks I truly respect do advocate that... I have gotten away from automatically shooting only twice then assessing (what some call the "standard response").

True enough, if you don't hit the spine or brain, a subject can easily remain on his feet several seconds, which will seem like a lifetime in a fight - IT IS A LIFETIME; YOURS!

So if you dont have cover, I would advocate putting some more rounds in the upper chest hopping that one will be on line for the spine ( a very difficult target to hit).

In short, "anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting a LOT." This has nothing to do with "overkill" or one upmanship, it has to do with ending the fight as quickly as possible.

Onward,
Jim
 
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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Put a round thru the heart, and one can still live 30+ seconds.........which is a lot of time to do a lot of damage.

Most dept.s I keep in contact with, now shoot 3 center mass as a minimum.

Nothing is a given, the body & bullets can do strange things.
 

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Just got an AAR from another country on a sizeable quick and dirty gunfight. The Good Guys (four of them) prevailed against the BGs (five of them). Good guys had pistols (2 9mm, 1 .357 and 1 .45), bad guys most had AKs & Uzis but one had a pistol.

End result, one GG, armed with a Glock 19, achieved 11 chest hits (the # of hits and locations were confirmed at the end of the encounter) without effect! A 12th round to the ocular window was effective.. Load Speer +P Gold dot, the weight was not mentinoed.

Another GG hit another BG (armed with Uzi) 6 times in the chest with 115gr Win Silver tip...this BG, with the Uzi, then shot him in the arm and the GG with the .45 hammered him instantly putting him out of the fight.

The .45 shooter also canceled another threat with 2 shots. Another instant stop. Load, Remington Golden Saber Bonded 185 +P.

The .357 wielder, shooting 145 Silver Tips, cancelled two threats also. One with two hits to the chest was an instant stop. The other took two hits to the chest but did not go down (but was not as active as before) and received a head shot which did the trick.

I hope I don't have to remind folks that one case does not make a study, and proves nothing. On the other hand the results I hardly find surprising.

Jim
 

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Msg to: Jim Higginbotham

"anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting a LOT."

Hope ya'll will forgive me for not using proper "quote" techiniques, but I just had to tell Jim that I love this line. I guess I shouldn't admit it, but when I read it, I laughed out loud. Then I thought, "Now there's a man who knows how to write with clarity."

Thanks Jim, I'd like to use this line in the future.

Leslie
 
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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
One point women are told, in a shooting class I know of, is to keep shooting until the threat is no longer a threat. We all stress "practice". But, like as has been stated earlier, you need to vary your training so that you will be able to respond to any problem faced.

Learning from the experiences of others will help keep us all safer. Keep it up!
 

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Higginbotham stole my line, so I will add another bit of wisdom I heard long ago: "Ammo is cheap, but life is expensive."
My thanks to you then Leland, and to Jim, for not being embarassed about his original sources.

You guys keep this site fun.

Thanks,
Leslie
 
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