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Regulator,
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Gents,

Does anyone know of any documented shootings with the Corbon 135 grain JHP .40 load? Police or otherwise...
Does Cor-Bon keep any statistics?

Just want to know, as I often carry that loading, and am looking for something other than "gelatin" performance tests.

Inquiring minds...

Wes
 
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Wes.. reports of officer involved shootings (OIS) with any ammo are extremely hard to get access to. Reliable reports of citizens justifiably shooting felons are even harder to come by. Most of the best data on terminal ballistics of mainstream JHP loads can be accessed through tacticalforums.com.
 
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Evan Marshal's last published one-shot-stop stats, several years old now, list the .40 S&W Corbon 135 grain JHP at 88% effective.

(This was behind the Rem. Golden Saber at 94%, the Speer Gold Dot at 93%, the Federal Hydra-Shok at 93% and the Federal conventional JHP at 89%. But the sample spaces (i.e. number of shootings studied) for the loads were comparatively small (51 to 128) so the calculated %'s are probably only statistically significant plus or minus 3-5%. Which is to say, from the available information, the various loads are probably not significantly different in effectiveness from each other.)



. . . reports of officer involved shootings (OIS) with any ammo are extremely hard to get access to. Reliable reports of citizens justifiably shooting felons are even harder to come by.
Very true, and one of the things lost on (or envied by) Marshall's critics. Evan Marshall was a cop and detective in the Detroit PD (now that must have been an active career) and this gave him an "in" with other LE agencies to sift through their case files of actual shootings and the particulars thereof.
 

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I'm not a fan of E.M. or his work. Much criticism has been leveled at his work and book. However, his third book is fun reading and has a chapter 28 about actual shootings. Lots of .40S&W case histories, but no CorBon shown there. The next chaper 29 is where nevadaalan quotes the percent data from, I think that's right. But like I said, for me it is "fun" reading and that is all.

Enough has been said and written about the so called "one-shot-stop" being a myth. We should all remember that no handgun can be expected to have a 100% rating. For better information our own Stephen Camp has posted results and comparison on his website, such as this one...
http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Have%20No%20Faith.htm

FWIW,
og
 
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(Evan Marshall's) third book . . . . chaper 29 is where nevadaalan quotes the percent data from . . . .
Actually, I grabbed a March 2001 copy of Gun World magazine, but it's exactly the same data as in Marshall's third book.
 

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do I recommend EM's third book. Well, yes, even though I'm not a fan of his, there are a number of chapters written by other well known authors..Keith Jones, Tom Burczynski, John Jacobs, John Farnam. And the chaper 27 (not 28, my mistake) are actual shootings from actual people, with pictures of bullets recovered. Lot's of the calibers we talk about.
John Jacobs' chapter 25 about what the Border Patrol thinks about expansion, penetration and all that is an eyeopener. The FBI doesn't know it all.
So whatever you think about some of the bull that EM has published, the third book is "fun". Just don't subscribe to the percent data he publishes.
You can get a copy at Amazon.com for a discount. It's title is "A Practical Analysis of the Latest Handgun Ammunition" published 2001, so it's not too old yet. Nice to have in your library, if you have firearms books.
But don't tell EM I sent you, his ego is too big already. ::)

og
 

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I think the key point raised by weshowe's question is that lab testing of bullets is not the same as actual street results. Actually compiling an extensive data base of actual shootings would be of tremendous value in comparing different brands, bullet designs, and calibers. Marshall was indeed on the right track, and if nothing else, should be given credit for that. Whether or not anyone else in the law enforcement world will approach this daunting task again is doubtful, given the seond-guessing and criticism that would surely come with the effort. This is unfortunate for us all. In the meantime, we are left with piecemail, anecdotal results and lab results in a medium that is not the human body. Any LEO out there game for undertaking a herculean statistical effort?
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
dtwilly,

You're spot on about real world performance data being hard to come by. EM came under a lot of flack for his methodology, but at least he did something. I even if we take away the "one shot stop" criteria we are left with a good idea of which calibers and loads are working.

Wes
 

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Sorry, but I have to disagree. It's so difficult to compare apples to apples with shootings, and I don't think the data Captain Marshall and Sgt. Sanow have collected are really any more relevant than if they'd collated data on the weather or lotto number on the day of the shooting.

I've worked on quite a number (over 150) of handgun killings, and the only thing that I can tell you is that a person generally appears to discontinue aggressive action when he is hit in either the brain or heart/aorta. Other areas may kill, but hits to those areas are what seem to be required to effectively stop a person.

To hit the brain or heart/aorta you need 1) precise shot placement (or luck), and 2) adequate penetration. Some calibers seem markedly more effective in the adequate penetration department than others, even in the relatively low number of shootings I've seen. I've seen people killed and stopped with .22s, .25s, .32s and .380s - but I can tell you that these often looked like "Hail Mary" stops, with the lucky bullet only getting to "the good stuff" after a whole number of them did not. Then again, I've seen people instantly stopped with one shot from these calibers - but the inadequate penetration that I see often from these makes me think that they are not something upon which I would care to depend.

Bigger calibers seem to work more effectively, because they are more capable of penetrating to the vital structures that must be damaged in order to effect a stop. (Interestingly, the 9mm Mak (in the limited number of shootings I've seen with it) seems to perform more with "the big boys" than with the other blowback-type rounds.)

The idea, though, that Messrs. Marshall and Sanow can tell whether a Silvertip is better than a Gold Dot or Hydra-Shok or whether a 9mm is better than a .40 by merely comparing what happened in shootings using those bullets without reference to precisely how and where the person was hit, which structures were damaged, and what external (drugs?) factors influenced the victim, is laughable. Their work simply does not isolate other vitally important factors that matter in the shootings, and attributing the stop solely to "bullet performance" is unbelievably unscientific and silly. I have no doubt that Marshall and Sanow have the best of all possible intentions, but I would no more base my carry decisions on their "real world performance data" than I would those preposterous "Nytrillium" ads cluttering up the gun rags. :)
 

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Hi Folks,

Since Mr. Marshall is not here to defend his work and we seem to be rehashing the pro vs. anti EM debate, we have digressed quite a bit from the poster's original question.

Let's please focus on the poster's intended question.

Thanks,

Chris
 

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Glad you've been following this thread, Chris. Certainly it is a most controversal subject that can never be answered accurately. So it's doubtful anyone will have a good answer to the original request for actual street results with .40 CorBon ammo.
Again, Stephen's article is still the best advice... http://www.hipowersandhandguns.com/Have%20No%20Faith.htm
So, as many have said before, if you have a favorite ammo that you can shoot with confidence in your handgun with good accuracy, stick with it and don't be too concerned about what any published data says it will or will not do.
Looks like that's about it for this thread. My suggestion to read EM's third book is only an opinion. Erich's opinions are well noted. So before this goes any further, I'll close the thread.
Anyone with a good reply should pm weshowe with their info.
Thanks to all,
og
 
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