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Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

Do you folks see the 147gr. 9mm ammo as being a viable option, whether it be for protection, hunting, ect.?

I'm pretty much a fan of the 115gr. & 124gr. ammo when it comes to the 9mm, but, lately I picked up some 147gr. JHP Winchester White Box, Code: USA9JHP2. I've not had a chance to shoot it, so I can't honestly comment on it yet.

Do we have any 147gr. 9mm fans on board here?

Thanks For Your Replies,
The Sockman
 

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Sockman,

I am with you in favoring 115 grain (Federal 9BP or Wichester Silvertips) or 124 grain (Remington GS or Speer GDHP). I just never warmed up to the heavier loads in 9 mm. All four loads mentioned feed flawlessly in my BHP; I just don't see the need to experiment with lighter or heavier loads.

PGM
 

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Hello. With the current "heavy bullet" 147-gr. bullets, it probably makes little difference between them and the lighter/faster bullets. At least that is what the gelatin guys say. I sort of prefer to see how they work on animals. The only deer I killed using a 147-gr. bullet (Golden Saber) was a handload in .38 Super which was a tad more energetic than from the 9mm. I do believe that were I going with 147-gr. bullets in 9mm, they would definitely have to be either Golden Saber, Gold Dot, or the Ranger bullet from Winchester.

Best.
 

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I've worked on a lot of cases in which people got shot. At the minimum, shot placement and adequate penetration are what's needed to work. I had always been a "light and fast" 9mm guy, but after seeing how often penetration of intervening objects (very often arms thrown out defensively) came into play in these shootings, I got to thinking that the momentum from a "moderate speed and heavier" bullet might be more sensible.

The gelatin guys seemed to bear me out, so I bought a whole pile of Gold Dot 147-grainers (because they were cheaper through Natchez and Sportsman's Warehouse than the other 147-grainers by major manufacturers), and loaded them into my Glock 26.

Reading Mr. Camp's writings, however, got me thinking the Winchester 127-gr +P+ load might work better for my Glock. I tried it out yesterday, and it is one smoking, accurate load. It's now in the G26 (where it reminds me of how the .357 Sig used to feel out of the G33 I used to have), but I'm keeping the 147-grainers for use in my Hi-Power (probably just a bit easier on the old girl). FWIW, I find the 147-grainers easier to shoot quickly, although the 127-grain +P+ load is not bad compared to the .357 Sig, just feisty for a 9mm. ;)
 

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SOCKMAN,

A few years back the local PD put a 147gr bullet through the back glass of a pickup and into the guy's head. Seems he was trying to run down a fellow officer.

The load was 147gr standard pressure Hydra-Shok.

I still like medium weight with speed, but will carry anything reasonable.

Josh <><
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hello & Thanks for all the replies,

First, I also think the Winchester 127gr. +P+ Ranger is the Best Performance Ammo ever made for the 9mm.

I didn't really buy the 147gr. for street carry, I mainly just wanted to see what my High Powers shot like with it, and at around $11.00 for 50 I could not resist.

Mr. Camp, what do you suspose is the reason, that the 147gr. Winchester doesn't penetrate any better than it does in you wet pack test? It's really no better or very little better than 115gr. WWB, 115gr. Federal Classic or 124gr. GoldDot in the wet pack test.

How is the 147's vs. 124's on hard targets, does anyone have any info on this?

Thanks Again,
The Sockman
 

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Hello. The wet pack is denser and may just artificially show slightly less penetration than for the 147 than the more correct 10% gelatin.

Best.
 

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Sockman,

In the instance I cited above, the bullet entered the perp's head right where the officer aimed. The automotive glass did not deflect it from its course.

Josh <><
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Hello Josh,

Does the local P.D. still carry 9's, and if so are they still useing the same load?

Thanks Again Everyone,
The Sockman
 

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Hello. The wet pack is denser and may just artificially show slightly less penetration than for the 147 than the more correct 10% gelatin.

Best.
So you're saying you're using the Sunday Editions of the Dallas Morning News in your wetpacks and that it's slightly denser than red jello?
Question Mr. Camp, do you think using green jello or Monday edition newspapers would help any? Hehe, my apologies for the humour, I simply couldn't help myself.

So ok, to add something useful to the thread, are there any real differences between 147 grain standard pressure and 124/127 grain standard pressure ammo, that anyone has noted? Aside from the already stated lower penetration. Do the mid-weight bullets have more reliable expansion or do the heavier bullets have a more reliable expansion rate?

-Rob
 
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Hello.

Im a huge fan of 147 grain loads. I usually keep nothing but 147 grain loads in my Glock 19, although they are loaded with 127 +P+ Rangers right now, but with a back up mag of 147 grain Winchester JHPs.

The difference in expansion between the 147 grain Ranger is less than .03 expansion or so according to Stephen A. Camps results. The 147 grainers also penitrate deepers, both in gel and through barriers, especially autoglass. They are also much easier to control (im not recoil sensitive, but less recoil does mean more accurate and quicker follow up shots).

I feel just fine with the 127 +P+ Ranger, but that is the lowest I will go. I prefer 147 grain Ranger T, or 147 grain Gold Dots. The Golden Saber is a nice design, but I just dont bother trying it out since I have heard too much bad things about Remington ammo to consider them for SD. I would really like to see them loaded by Georgia Arms or Black Hills.
 

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Hello. I suspect that with the denser super-saturated newsprint, the bullets expand to fuller diameter quicker than in gelatin, hence the decreased penetration. I have no way to prove this, just a guess. Expanded diameters are about the same as what I've pulled out of animals, but I suspect they simply cannot push a deep through the denser soaked newsprint than in the gelatin.

I've seen no poor expansion qualities in either the light to mid to heavy weight range of newer bullet designs. In some of the older ones, it's been my experience that higher velocity usually results in more sure expansion. With the newer designs, it appears that so long as the bullet is in a more general velocity range, expansion occurs. The newer bullets also seem to work more reliably
at the lower ends of their velocity envelopes as well.

Best.
 

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Sockman,

The last I spoke to the Wabash City Police they were still using the 147gr Hydra-Shok in Sigs.

I believe I may have heard some rumblings about a change but that could be the Sheriff's Dept. switching out their Glock .40's for Sig .40's.

The WCP's phone number is 260.563.1111. I will ask about their armament next time I have reason to speak with them.

Josh <><
 

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Well to stir the brew a bit..I don't carry or hunt so my use is strickly fun and games..Have no use for those evxpensive hollow points,just use FMJ's or cast bullets..Have had great luck with a 147gr cast bullet with 3.0 gr Bullseye..Very pleasent to shoot and accurate to boot..
Give it a try you might be pleasently surprised..
 

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127 gr. +P+??? What is the velocity of this load? I thought only 115 gr. JHPs was loaded to +P+?
 

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Hello.

strider72:

Here are some average velocities for the Winchester 127-gr. +P+ based on 10 shots fired 10' from chronograph screens:

Browning Mk III: 1269 ft/sec

Glock 26: 1246 ft/sec

STI Trojan Long Slide 6" bbl: 1296 ft/sec

Springfield Armory XD9: 1257 ft/sec

Glock 17: 1288 ft/sec

CZ-75: 1285 ft/sec

Taurus PT-92: 1292 ft/sec

Best.
 

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Twas my understanding that 147 has not proven itself on the street. Buddy of mine was in LASD when they transitioned from Smith wheelguns to the Beretta, and the original issue round was 147 subsonic, I believe Winchester. LAPD went to a 95 gr JSP, go figure. Neither round lasted because of, if memory serves, penetration issues, as in too much. Both agencies now use 115+P+ far as I recollect.
 
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147 grainers would be better than nothing and definitely my last choice in that caliber...I'd take a 124 grainer over it given the choice
 
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Just a little history, if my memory serves.

In 1986, in the infamous "Miami Shootout", an FBI Agent got a solid hit
on one of the badguys with a 115 grain Winchester Silvertip hollowpoint.
The hit was fatal, but not immediately incapacitating. As a result, the
FBI did a battery of ammunition tests with gelatin and a series of
intermediate barriers.

Following this, the FBI switched to Federal Hydra-Shok 147 grain
hollowpoints. According to the tests, this round gave deeper
penetration through barriers than lighter weight bullets. Expansion was
less than lighter loads but the FBI decided that, due to the variety of
shots that an Agent might have to take - facing badguys behind doors,
windows, car doors, car windshields, walls, etc. - penetration was more
important. Much like European armies in the 1920s planning to re-fight
the First World War, the FBI found a round that would have performed
better during the Miami Shootout.

Does that mean that the 147 grain bullet is "better" than the 115 grain
Silvertip? Perhaps, for law enforcement officers needing to know their
bullets will penetrate car bodies and other obstacles, the answer is
"yes". For average citizens who will likely face criminals with no more
than clothing as a barrier, the answer is probably "no". Perhaps bonded
rounds are the best "solution" to the penetration equation, which allow
lighter weight (124 grain, 127 grain) rounds to penetrate more uniformly.

As the FBI found out, there are no "magic" bullets. Expansion is
ephemeral but penetration is forever. Hits are what counts, and shot
placement is paramount. Get multiple, solid hits on the badguy, and
hope he misses in all the excitement. Then hope your bullets do what
they are designed to do. I do not, by the way, think there is no value
in "near misses". The very fact that you are returning fire will cause
the badguy's accuracy level to drop significantly, hopefully leading him
to miss you.

Just some random thoughts....
 
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