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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hy folks,

allow me to place this topic, because as a newbie I would like to hear some comments and opinions.


When I read the question, why don't you carry a HP or a 1911, I had the feeling that some how everybody carries a HP or a 1911.

When I read a gun book, and read the technical characteristics from each gun, I understand there are not mayor differences between all guns Perhaps with some exceptions, like the Mauser P08, maybe the glocks and Heckler & Koch.

Are all the guns are HP s ans 1911 s with small modifications?


Do this modifications make the guns better? Worse? Why?
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There is none in my country that can give me a good explanation. ???

Thanks!

Andreas
 

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With apologies to Bob Reed for posting off-subject on another thread (Why DON'T You Carry a 1911 or a BHP?), I'd like to re-post in answer to this question, and ask one. Most contemporary autos are in fact modifications of the Browning design---recoil-operated, slide w/ or w/o fixed barrel, etc., with the exception of the Ruger .22's, bolt-in-frame---but how come Browning's design is so widely copied, but the Luger never attracted much imitation?
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I am not sure if you refer the Luger P08 from Germany, but as far as I could read, this was a very nice, expensive bad pistol.

Technically, it is a nice mechanism, but the pistol seems to have been very difficult to manufacture, is very sensitive to dirt, and ammunition variations.


There is a nice post in the Harting Guns encyclopedia (Spanish translation) Now retranslated by me: "It was an unpractical untrustable very nice mechanic prodigy"


So I guess this is the reason why the Luger never attracted much imitation.

I guess Mauser in Germany and other manufacturers produce or have recently produced small series of Luger, in different calipers from .22 to .45 ACP, including 7.65 parabellum.

Andreas
 

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And the Luger was a copy of an American design, the Borchardt C93. While an interesting design, Georg Luger did a much better job than poor old Hugo. :)
 
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And of course, there are the few Blowback and Delayed-Blowback pistols, such as the HK VP-70 and P9s. Then there are rotating bolt pistols, like Beretta's new PX4 Storm, and the Cougar that preceded it. Their M9 also uses a concept somewhat divorced from the one driving the operation of the 1911 and Hi-power, which was originally copied from Walther's P-38 and P-5, wherein a tilting locking block replaces the barrel-integral cam of the FN P-35, or pinned-on locking link of the 1911.

But wait, there's more. HK's magnificent P7 series of pistols operates on gas-retarded blowback, wherein pressure from the fired round is redirected to a piston beneath the barrel, in lieu of a roller or leaf-spring type of blowback delay. This system is what allows these guns to be so compact and accurate. Also, let's not forget the Mateba Unica, a revolver who's self-cocking hammer, operated by its recoiling cylinder, also classifies it as an automatic handgun.

And of course, there are the bolt-locking handguns, such as the Ruger MkII, and other such .22 caliber target pistols, all of which were designed since the death of one John Moses Browning. While we're on the subject of those, let's not forget to mention everyone's favorite (woefully -- overrated) hand cannon, the IMI/Magnum Research Desert Eagle, with its gas operated, radial lug, bolt-locking configuration.

There's also Benelli's Peculiar P76, which uses a weird form of blowback operation where a locking block actually sits down behind the barrel, and the recoil of the slide, through a funny little link in the top of the rear of the block, pulls it down and out of the way, so that the ejector can push the spent casing out of the ejection port.

Straight from Finland, there's the Lahti L-35, which by some mechanics which I won't even pretend to understand, used both a bolt and a slide with an integral barrel!

China has produced some off-the-wall guns, including the type 80, a mechanically and ergonomically upgraded Mauser C-96, with a detachable magazine.

Let's not even go into all the weird stuff Russia produced for the KGB, during the cold war, but as an example, they had one gun where the chamber recoiled away from the barrel!

In short, while the guns that use browning-type locking systems are probably still some of the best, due to their simplicity, ease of maintenance, and reliability, it is completely unfair to other firearms designers to assume that all they know how to do is copy Browning.


Many thanks to the modern firearms and ammunition website, for reminding me of all these crazy things. There's only so much useless gun trivia a man can keep in one mind.
 

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No, not all pistols. I'm pretty sure revolvers don't function anything like HPs or 1911s.

Walther's P38 and various other locked breech pistols are also unique, not a modified Browning system. I believe that Sig-Sauer handguns are also of a unique system that is not a modified Browning type.

I believe that Browning-type actions are among the most common of firearms actions and if you want to get down to it. Browning designed the first truly successful locked breech semi-automatic handguns. That said, while a great many designs have copied or modified the action, there are considerably more than a few which function on a seperate action design all together.

-Rob
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi friends,

Do you think the clones of the 1911 and BHP are the same? are better? are worse? ???

What are the real differences when you have the gun in your hand between a BHP, a CZ, and a Beretta? ???

Aren't this guns reliable, accurate, not jam, easy to clean? Isn't almost everybody carrying the same weapon, with an other name?

Aren't our preferences really rational, or a rationalization of a feeling? ???

I will write my case:

My first pistol is an Argentinian single action 9 mm Browning.

Nice gun. Never jammed, even with prehistorical ammunition. (Old Yugoslavian parabellum) Very accurate, works in every climatic situation, from 0 m level to 5600m altitude. Tropical amazonas to the cold high Andean mountains. Dirt, sun and rain. If fallen into a muddy swamp, just need to clean with not so muddy swamp water, and the pistol still worked.


After returning home, followed the instructions written in this forum to clean the gun, and believe it or not, the pistol still worked.


I use my pistol for sports and fun, but if I would have to use it in real situations, why don't trust this gun? :)

As you see, I have a romance with my pistol. :-*

One of the problems I have with my pistol is that the trigger is heavy, and I am slow. (Chris and twoguns are working on my slowness problem). Is this a reason to look for a clone? What would a clone do better?

Now I am planing to cheat my argie with a 9 mm Bul Cherokee. This because I want to compete in production division in IPSC and I need a double action pistol, and it is the only weapon available at the moment in my country (if someday the pistol can come out the customs door) But it seems to be that the Bul is a clone of the 1911.
 
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One of the problems I have with my pistol is that the trigger is heavy, and I am slow. (Chris and twoguns are working on my slowness problem). Is this a reason to look for a clone? What would a clone do better?
Actually, your Argentinian single action 9 mm Browning is a clone of the Browning Hi-Power.
 
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