Handguns and Ammunition Forum banner
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
G

·
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been doing some thinking today, and I realized something: I'd rather someone attack me with a gun, with a club, with their fists, or even with an automobile, than have them pull a knife on me at a distance of less than five feet.

The gun, I can take away from them, or I can outshoot them. The club, I can avoid, or I can stop with my bare hands, towards where it is being gripped, negating some of the inertia. The car I can dodge, but getting attacked by someone with a knife just sucks. It's going to come too quickly, and too close for me to avoid injury.

I have basically reconciled myself to the fact that if someone attacks me with a knife, I'm probably going to get hurt -- badly. However, I have come up with one way that might let me at least survive:

Drop.

Fall backwards, draw a gun from a pocket or crossdraw holster, and pump lead into the guy until he's gained five pounds. It's the only thing that I found that I could do every time, and reliably. It uses the knife's major disadvantage, reach, against it. Granted, I'll probably still get cut up on my lower body in a bad way doing this, but he'll have to reach over my kicking legs and put his face in front of a blazing muzzle in order to get at my vitals.

Oh, and for those who care, the worst method I've ever found for resisting a knife attack is another knife.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
Probably the BEST thing you can do, is see it coming and run away.

No offense and perhaps you're quite skilled and capable of maintaing you head during an encounter like you described. But personally, I doubt very few are capable of falling backwards, being able to focus and draw their handgun and fire. Especially, because someone with a knife is going to be ALL over you. If you go down, they will be coming down on top of you without hesitation. I suggest getting a safe training gun(airsoft or blue/red gun) and a safe training knife(rubber), and put on some goggles. Then have a training partner attack you with INTENT to harm you at the range you describe. I think you'll be shocked at how incapable you are of being able to draw and fire on a suspect who is within arms reach trying to kill you. I can tell you why you'll be unable to draw and fire too, because your hands will instinctively be up trying to protect your throat and face from getting ripped out.

If you're being attacked, in my opinion it is better to draw an impact weapon and to swing for the head. It is known that drawing a knife or baton is faster and easier to do under extreme stress than a handgun, because knives and "sticks" are more instinctive weapons. So, if someone was attacking me with a knife, I'd want a 21" or larger baton to beat them off with. As this would give me more reach over the knife. If they did get within range of me, I would not attempt to fall away, but I would move offensively. The best defense is a good offense, instead of trying to retreat, I would opt to move into my opponents arm length and attack him with anything and everything I've got. This would put him on the defense and perhaps cause him to give up his attack.

I think the key to fighting back during a knife fight, is to fight like you've got NOTHING to lose, because you don't. I will quote **** Strider(of Strider Knives) who said, "In a fight with a knife, you've got to be the "badman"." The "badman" is the guy whose rage, fury, and will to survive boil to the top during a life threatening encounter. He is not a bad guy, but rather he lets everything go and focuses ONLY on destroying his opponent. It sounds barbaric, but honestly in a knife/club/fist fight this is the mindset you'll have to adopt to survive.

-Rob
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Someone who draws a knife on me at arms' length is probably going to be on me far more quickly than either of us can even begin to imagine. Before I can do anything, I'll have to get over being startled. I don't buy into the idea that someone can manage condition yellow ALL the time. This technique is not for when I see the attack coming. It's for when I screw up. As such, it's the sort of self-defense maneuver that nobody likes to discuss, or even consider. Admitting that you might have to use this trick means admitting that you are not superhuman, and are not invincible.

If I'd have seen it coming, then I'd have kept my distance from this person, or at least had my hand on a weapon, and a pre-programmed response ready. The idea of this technique is to get me far enough away that I can get some kind of a weapon ready, and then mount a ferocious counterattack. It's also quite likely to surprise the attacker, even if for only a second.

The scenario that I am describing here is one wherein death is almost a certainty. Any technique that anyone comes up with is really going to amount to not much more than a one-in-a-thousand shot at survival.

Charging a knife-wielding threat at three feet might work, but it really just gives him a chance to reach around behind you and collapse your lungs. Trying to disarm him might also work, but it requires you to extend your arms, and as such, your wrists and brachial arteries towards someone who has a sharp object.

I hate knives. I Positively HATE them. There is no such thing as a "good" way to deal with a knife attack, except to be outside of their reach, which isn't an option if some punk gets lucky and manages to get close.

As for the whole idea of turning into a rage machine, I only buy into that for fist fighting, or for bludgeoning. Against a gun or a knife, it destroys your precision, and at best, offers the cold comfort that you will probably bring your attacker down with you. Let your indignation and rage motivate your counterattack, by all means, but keep it focused.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,399 Posts
Hi chubbypidgeon,

This is all academic as many us haven't been in a violent encounter, but I would have to agree that if you get into a fight with someone with a knife, that you are going to get cut.

I agree with Rob that staying out of the oponents reach is the key and a "big stick" is going to cause a great deal more offensive disablement in the short term. I frequent the outdoors with a "big stick" (a 30" polished hardwood 1" diameter dowel). I take it on early morning walks and strangers literally steer out of my way to the other side of the street.

I carry a pocketgun as well. However, should I be suprised or ambushed, what you have in your hand is literally "what is at hand" for a defensive weapon. A flurry of defensive blows to both hard and soft body targets is going to break up the rhythm of attack.

Thank you for the interesting post.

Chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,617 Posts
Too many people believe in Magic Bullets.

The truth is, the adept dude with a real knife (not a 'combat folder', whatever that is) who doesn't telegraph his opening move, will kill you from 10 meters out. He _may_ die, but you _will_.

Bullets take too long to take effect, barring major disruption of CNS or support structures.

A stout impact weapon will allow you to deflect the rush or possibly disarm the attacker.


Regards,

Pat
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
430 Posts
Chubbypigeon,

I certainly never meant to suggest you should charge a knife wielding attacker. Quite the contrary, if there is enough room to "charge" then there is enough room to either get away or fight back more effectively. I meant that if a knife armed opponent is already ~on-top-of-you~ that it would be better to move into him, than away. It throws off the rythm of his attack and attacking with unbriddled fury will put him on the defensive, throwing the odds in your favor.

Using only myself as an example, and again I say everyone is different. I know that if someone just attacked me with a knife...I would be two things, SCARED and ENRAGED. I would only be thinking about killing the person attacking me with a knife. There is no doubt in my mind that if you're being attacked by a person armed with a knife, that someone will die. That might mean getting to my handgun and firing, I'm not sure. However, by the time someone is in "knife range" it's an up close and personal conflict. Once you've fended the opponent off of you initially, I highly doubt you'll be thinking clear enough to retreat or do anything that isn't destroying your opponent.

I'm not suggesting that your plan is incorrect, now. It's nice to think we'd be able to fall back, draw our weapons, and fire effectively, and it is a good idea to TRAIN this way as well. I just doubt how well motor functions will work at "kissing range" when facing a 10" butcher knife. I suppose I'm being a bit too pessimistic and too much of a realist. I just believe the only way to defend against an up close knife attack is to kill your opponent as quickly as possible. That to me means attacking and not letting up until the opponent is down and out.

-Rob
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Like I said, it might work, but it's really risky. I train my drop-back technique some, but I should probably do it more, if I want to really use it.

The big problem isn't going to be the technique; It's going to be getting over being startled, and then reacting. Like I said, this is something we should only have to think about if we screwed up on some level. The Tueller drill shows us the relative futility of trying to use a gun against a knife-wielder at 21 feet. Perhaps this is merely the logical extension of that drill. The closer they get, the deader you are, after all.

Even at 21 feet, though, if I saw the guy coming, then I could probably at least have gun, club, or knife in hand, by the time he got there.

You know, I may just have to get myself a cain. It seems to me that jabbing the knifer in the gut with the tip of that thing, and then taking advantage of his breathless condition to beat the living tar out of him might be the VERY best means of defense against a knife.
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #8 ·
hey all -

what occurs to me about the drop back technique being discussed is the differences between a training scenario and the reality of the world outside, where inconvenient things like curbstones, stairs, walls, tables, chairs, fire hydrants, trees, rocks and uneven terrain tend to present themselves. There are also issues with the generally symmetrical scenarios in which most training unavoidably takes place versus the asymmetry of an attack, ie the attack may be from any number of directions and there will probably be unexpected and confusing circumstances.

This is an area where the study of the internal martial arts, such as Hsing-I, Bagua Zhang and Tai Chi Chuan can provide great tactical advantage. Much of these arts concern themselves with listening to, and attaching to and manipulating the opponents energy. This has had the effect that now when I train with partners from other styles it is generally easy to see the big strikes coming and use the energy of the strike against the opponent, whether to uproot or apply joint locks and if I wanted to, break bones.

Having been attacked on several occasions including twice being unarmed and facing attackers with knives. I can say it is never going to be what you expect, training in a particular technique is highly unlikely to lend itself readily to the situation at hand. Developments of the ability to perceive the opponents energy and intent will go a long way toward having an appropriate and automatic response.

best -
pm
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,617 Posts
I was thinking some more on this during a lull last night.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that falling back puts you in a subordinate position, which will only encourage the bully-mentality of a lot of thugs.

The other thing is that said thug, in the process of dying, will be falling forward. With weapon in hand. On top of you.


Regards,

Pat
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,642 Posts
pff is right- If they know what they are about, and want you dead, you will be. The same is true whether they use a knife, gun, big rock, whatever.

And we probably won't have much, if any, warning from anyone but the jerk who stands and argues, puffing his chest, telling you what he's going to do to you, etc.
If that's the case, and we have half a chance....well, I guess then we have half a chance.

Regarding movement (again, if we even get the chance to move):
Yeah, his (or her) momentum is carrying them whatever way they are going. I try to practice movement to the side or at an angle, although I work on straight back also, because it may be the only option.
Going straight back only delays things by a microsecond, which doesn't help much since you are already way behind. Besides, I may not know what's back there.
I may have just come from that direction, and therefore know it's clear, but that was then- before a fight started.

Like has been said, if the attack has begun, it's probably too late for me to do much. A step or two of movement at best. I sure won't get my gun out and shooting in time to stop it. I can try to get out of the way, and hopefully do that by moving in the direction of their knife-arm side. To clarify- Not charging the arm, but moving to my left/their right if the weapon is in their right hand.

That is probably better than going toward their other side, as I would be moving into the path of the knife if he sweeps it around.

In regards to "preferring" a certain type of wound:
I think most people fear knife wounds because they have seen plenty of them, although most may be tiny in relation to what we are talking about here. It may be an accident while carving the turkey, but we've all seen some form of knife wound, most of them as they happened. Fewer have seen gunshot wounds as they occur.
It could be argued that hunters see gunshot wounds fairly regularly. I may well be wrong, but I don't think seeing animals shot carries over to envisioning people being shot very well. I'm sure there have been studies done on that somewhere.
I don't know.
Just my theory.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,617 Posts
Great offensive weapons. Very intimidating. Sorta like the sound of racking an 870.


Staff or cane works better for defense (in my uninformed opinion...haven't trained with the ASP) if the thug hasn't telegraphed. Grasps from either end, plus the crook on a cane can be used several ways.

Regards,

Pat
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
2,951 Posts
I've taken knives away many times.

Sometimes you get cut, sometimes you don't.

Knowing some form of martial arts is a good thing.

Best way I know to deal with a knife lunge:

Grab knife arm with both hands while staying balanced. (This takes practice)

Rake the side of your foot down attacker's shin (attention redirection)

Immediately bring your knee up and attacker's knife hand down. Go for the elbow or wrist, but any nerve center will work.

That's the simplest way to describe. There are more effective ways that I will not try to explain in text.

Josh <><
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I've been attacked, I've been cut - Neither is any fun. A knife in trained hands (or dare I say even untrained) will kill you, real quick and fast like. I mention breaking contact in at least one of my posts, so I won't rehash it. Josh points to some training in martial arts being of some help - but don't put all your eggs in one basket. The chances of being cut are pretty high - you need to be aware of that, and prepared for it. No matter what your brain is your most powerful weapon - use it. For what it's worth - the drop back method is one I will never use, consider, or otherwise entertain - it goes against everything my mind and training tell me.

Anthony
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
The Tueller drill shows us the relative futility of trying to use a gun against a knife-wielder at 21 feet.
I'll go one farther -- It shows us the futility of trying to use a gun against a knife-wielding attacker at 21 feet even when you are fully prepared for it.

That's something about the Tueller Drill that doesn't get much attention -- both people in the test (the gunman and the knife-wielder) knew beforehand what was going on, so it stands to reason that a thug with a knife who has the element of surprise could attack from even further out, and still be deadly.

I'm will you guys -- I'm much more afraid of being attacked with a knife than I am with a gun.

Wes
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,617 Posts
Worth restating:

A competent knife user who doesn't telegraph his opening move will kill you from 10 meters out. Possibly further if there are distractions.

Regards,

Pat
 
G

·
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
No one can draw and fire with an attacker at ten yards before the attacker in on them. It does not matter if the attacker has a gun, knife, club, or what ever. The best defense is to be watchful and know your options. I have been castigated for saying to never let anyone you thought could be a potential threat get within 21 feet of you without your being ready. But I stand by that! If you look like a "soft" target, you will become one. As I learned in the Army, if people think you have a purpose in what you are doing, they will leave you alone. When walking, walk with your head up, a steady quick stride and know what is going on around you. Criminals look for easy targets, do not look like one!
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top