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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Decades ago, ammunition was neither as sophisticated nor as reliable as a tool as it is today. Handgun ammunition ballistics was much more fundemental. Bullet penetration and expansion were considered unreliable. Gun carriers of that day sought an edge. The edge for many professionals was what was called the "Dutch Load".

The "Dutch Load" was a magazine loaded with varying types of ammunition. A common load was two rounds of JHP followed by two rounds for FMJ repeated for the capacity of the magazine. The idea behind this was that if the hollowpoints failed to penetrate the full metal jacket wouldn't. Alternately, the expanding rounds might do the job if the ball ammo didn't. Variations of the basic theme were common. One professional of the day, a personal protection specialist, carried magazines loaded (from the top) with 3 rounds of Silvertips, 2 rounds of FMJ, 3 rounds of another hollowpoint, 2 FMJ rounds, and 3 more silvertips, with a silvertip in the chamber.

I haven't heard the words "Dutch Load" for a long time. I suspect it is still used by countless gun carriers even if they've never known it had a name, because they still look for an edge for when the chips are down.
 

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Hi there abninftr,

Personally, I've not heard of the term applied in that context.

However, just this week a fellow shooter who had purchased a Jericho Baby Eagle 9 mm semi-automatic pistol told me that he had loaded the magazine on his with a Winchester Jacketed Hollow Point on the top of his mag with Full metal jacketed rounds in the balance because he had heard from a friend of his that Hollow Points had a propensity to "hang up" and possibly jam his weapon?

I hadn't heard that before and wondered if that was constued as an "edge" in reliablity issues in the past?

Considering most modern semiauto pistols have polished feed ramps and semi-throated chambers, I wonder if the term passed? (I am assuming the above statement is true with many modern semiauto pistols).

Chris
 

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abninftr,

I've never heard the expression.

I loaded like this as an experiment once. I couldn't shoot it well due to different recoil impulses.

The 9mm NATO, Remington +P HP, etc feel much snappier to me than the loadings offered by Cor
 

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I see mixed magazine loadouts alot more often than I would expect to see,given the choices in bullet type and performace and feed profile available today.

My thought on the "Dutch Load" is that you are introducing a variable into a situation, that has enough variables as it is, without adding more.

I have shot mixed magazines and have found that accuracy (within the same weight) has been fairly close to the sighted point of aim on average, exceptions do apply, but the recoil pulse between similiar loads can be so different that your subconscious mind is red flagging it as a potential malfunction and anything that can cause you to get distracted from the job at hand, can also get you killed.

I do carry a spare magazine full of +P 230 gr HN ball for a special event, but otherwise its a quality hollow point load and placement that I rely on.

Regards, Mueller
 

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My last magazine--be that the first or second spare I carry--is usually loaded with FMJ that hits about the same spot as my JHP's do. My w.a.f.g. of what may happen in a fracas involves needing to try to "reach" a hostile who's taken cover/concealment (hopefully the latter!)
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Replying to Chris, the reliability concern of that day was ballistic. That is, the bullet doing what it was supposed to do - penetrate and effectively wound. No one in their right mind, then or now, uses ammunition for self-defence that will not feed reliably 100% of the time.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
More explanation.

The most of the "Dutch Load" proponents were professional gun carriers. They included personal protection specialists (body guards), a few private detectives, and more than a couple of "government contractors". Each of whom accepted the reality that he were the only person on the planet genuinely concerned about his well-being.

Training and mental preparation was never-ending. Contingency planning started with waking up and ended only in dreamland. Contingency planning meant being prepared for every contingency.

Trust was not a virtue, but a vice. Trusting that one weapon would suffice or that one type of ammunition would do what the manufacturer promised were considered fatal flaws.

Their concern wasn't what the recoil felt like. Training eliminated that as a factor. They used "Dutch Loads" so that if the first type of rounds in the magazine didn't penetrate or expand they wouldn't have to reload to change ammunition. That was its virtue. One didn't have to reload to put a different type of ammo on target.
 

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Hello,

Don't get me wrong, I am well aware of the reasoning and the what if and other factors one tries to implement into ones training and even the potential value and logic that went into "Dutch Loads".

Trusting that one weapon, load or system would do it all is unrealistic and having a fall back is not only logical, but critical to your potential longevity, having said that, the odds/chance that the right bullet for the situation will actually be under the hammer at that particular moment in time is unlikely and one will have to make due with a compromise, not the best situation, but one we will need to work thru and overcome.

My question has always been, how does one figure the ratio?

1 HP up the spout, 1 HP then 3 Ball, then 2 HP, 1 ball

or

1 HPUS, 3HP, 3 ball, 1 HP

or

1 HPUS, 2 ball, 3HP, 2 ball

or

1 HPUS, 2 HP, 5 Ball

or

.........

Could give one a headache trying to figure it out


Regards, Mueller
 
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Memories. I used to load my AR-15 magazines with handloads using Hornady's 55 grain bullets, one soft point, one fmj. The load was the same, the bullets from the same manufacturer, and they hit VERY close at 100 yards. Groups with the mixed mags were in the 1 1/2 in range at 100. I had about 1000 rounds of this on stripper clips when I sold gun and ammo together back in 19-ought-89.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
For Mueller,

There wasn't a formula for the ratio. We loaded our mags depending upon our perceptions of likely tactical situations. Most of us perferred 4 JHPs on top. That gave us two double-taps. The FMJ gave us penetration if it was needed. More JHPs followed for a double tap or two. Obviously, this was dependent upon the magazine's capacity.
 

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Hello abninftr,

In reguards to the thread that I had about useing JHP's or FMJ's in Combat.

What were you guys planning on useing the FMJ's on, that the FMJ's would be better suited because of better penetration?

Thanks,
THE SOCKMAN
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
Sock,
Basically, one concern in those days was some form of barrier, such as vehicle skin or glass, that might prevent the JHPs penetrating (it or) the target sufficiently. The FMJs normally penetrated windshield glass more effectively. Also, there was the consideration of hitting a big, beefy guy and not taking him down with the JHPs, so the FMJs which had deeper penetration on "soft tissue" MIGHT help.

Ammunition has advanced light years since those days, so it's a bit of a mute point now.
 
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I liked the comments: "...Professional gun carriers... accepted the reality that he were the only person on the planet genuinely concerned about his well-being."

"Trust was not a virtue, but a vice."

One of the best compliments I ever got as a firearms instructor was to be compared with Sean Connery in the movie, "Untouchables" as he is dispensing sage advice to new guy Elliot Ness.

BTW I met one of the last of Ness' men around 1965, still with ATF in Chicago. Even as an old timer he was obviously a pretty salty customer.
 

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Coincidentally, I mentioned this on another forum as we had a local guy who did this.

To be honest I have never encountered a real Pro that Dutch Loaded. The closest thing I have seen to that is that in the old days before real reliable JHP ammo was available for autos some folks put a JHP up the spout and loaded the full mag with ball (we are talking 1960's here). I did this myself with early Super Vel in .45 but I was hardly what I would consider a pro then (and could probably put up a good argument that I am not now except that people pay me for my opinion sometimes - they just have no idea how little it is worth ;)).

Anyway, I don't see much merit to it except for those of us who are trying to experiment. The top couple of rounds in the MP-5 are Cor-Bon Power-Ball but that is because I am not likely to use the thing for really serious purposes (not knocking Power Ball, it is just an unknown to me at this point for me).

I do see some merit in hauling around an extra mag or even an extra gun with some special purpose ammo in it.

I haven't told this too much but when the DC sniper was doing his thing, my son and I had scheduled a trip to the NRA museum (which was in his theater of operation). I carried my normal G.M. .45 for normal defensive use but I also carried a S&W 58 that was dead on at 100 yards with JSP factory ammo which I figured would penetrate car bodies pretty good.

We had a good trip and it made it all the more interesting but I imagine our chances of running into the guy were pretty slim.

Jim
 

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abninftr,

I have begun loading my Kel Tec P-32 with the following in the magazine. Two Hydra-Shoks, followed by 4 full metal jacketed rounds with a Hydra-Shok as the last round.

The reason? The .32 acp is a marginal self-defense calibre with the theory being that full metal jacketed rounds will penetrate deeper if the Federal Hydra-Shok's do not.

Thank you for your thread. The subject is thought provoking.

Chris
 

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Carolinaman, a heads-up for you if I may. Make sure that the mixed load you mention contains ammo of similar overall length. It's a known problem in the Kel-Tec P-32s that the shorter-length rounds (jhp) can jump forward a bit under recoil, and the rim of the longer fmj's can get hooked behind the rim of the jhp's.

Hope I described that cogently enough; it's one of those things that we can demonstrate easier than explain.
 
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Gents,

I'm getting up in years and I have NEVER heard the term "dutch load" until now. Must be a east coast thing.

NO instructor I have ever worked with (Taylor on down) EVER recommended mixing your loads. If they did I'd walk away. On second thought, I'd run.

If you want to throw another variable in the pot, go ahead, it's your life. Me? I'll continue to put one kind only in my pistols, smile and be happy.

Should you want to carry a different load in a separate magazine fine. Switch out if you need to...frankly, if you go though a magazine and are still engaged you should:
Call for backup(shoulda already done that), break contact if possible (if warranted), or bring more powerful ordinance to bear on target (if available).

Remember you can always return to fight another day when odds are in your favor.

Last, as noted, howinthehell are you going to keek track of your loads when participants can't even remember how many they fired ,afterwords.

Should you want specialty ammo, go ahead, but carry it separately. This especially applies to all options available to shotguns...combat load your special stuff and go to work. Do NOT "candy cane" your ammunition..

Sorry, you folks hit a real sore spot......

Wes
 
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