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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
My pal just back from there and works with special ops ,says G17,G19,s are in Holsters being deployed in the Afghanistan and training on base. They work very well and have respect for reliability&shootability. I too have alot a respect for the G17 they are stone cold butt ugly ,but are diamonds in the eyes of the men that have used them in harms way. If I was stuck with one handgun it would be a butt ugly reliable&long lasting jam free Glock 17. One of the best 9mm ever made. My second choice in 9mm is the Sig226 which is the the Brits special ops pistol. My third choice the CZ75 and if I was going old school pre 1975 a Browning HP. My pal is one of the few that has combat ribbons from Vietnam ,Granada,Bosnia, all the sandbox wars. At 58 and a reserve Col. employed by the Goverment. He preferred a 1911,but used a Berretta M-9 over there till now its a Glock.
 

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I'm a nut for revolvers. Juat look at the photo of my collection on the revolver page. But also look at the lower left hand corner. Yep a Glock 19 and a Glock 26 are laying there.
 

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And so it goes here also. I like my HP's (and the WAM, and the 639, and prolly something I've forgotten about) but the 'go-to' and 'everywhere I go' piece is a Grock 21.

Its reliable and I shoot it better than the rest most of the time. I also prefer not being seen with it :D

I still likes me resolvers though and there's almost always one on me. Most of my recreational shooting is with round guns.


Regards,

Pat
 

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An observation if you will.

A little over 10 years ago I knew quite a few of the guys on ST-5. SIGs (P226s) were the issue then, but a lot of them had personal Glocks (G17s & 19s). These guys were all in their mid to late 20s and a few in their early 30s. The guys who carried Govt. Models/1911s or BHPs were called 'dinosaurs'.

My observation is that it is generational. All of us 'grey beards' grew up with the state of the art weapons of our day - Colts and Brownings. We wanted them, we used them and still cherish them. The young blokes state of the art handgun is the Glock, and they want them and use them.

It isn't that one gun is significantly better than the other. They all do the same job in the end, and that is to put rounds down range. It really is that simple.
 

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In the early part of the 20th century, the 1911 was king. it allowed much more rapid reloading than any previous sidearm in US military use, revolvers of course. A big heavy effective bullet, one more of them in the magazine than revolvers had plus a number of magazines could be carried for nearly instant reloading. A technical and military marvel.

Later, though many did not agree with the decision, it was decide to replace the venerable 1911 with a sidearm capable of double action fire that could be carried with a round chambered but uncocked, and a higher capacity magazine. The government bypassed the 1935 Browning Hi Power because it was still a cocked and locked single action pistol, even though it carried nearly twice the capacity (13rd) of the GI (7 rd) 1911 magazines. So the Beretta 92 won the day.

Now we have the Glock, and its original configuration was the Model 17 with 17 rounds of 9mm (same ammo currently in use which is a plus), with a frame that is not damaged by rain or sweat or galling of the sliding surfaces. A slide that is coated in a highly corrosion resistant material, that is basic and simple to use. Only one major safety point has to be taught. KEEP YOUR BOOGER HOOK OFF OF THE BANG SWITCH UNTIL READY TO SHOOT. No safeties and switches or decockers to remember to apply or deactivate as needed. Couple this with simplicity of field stripping and cleaning and the use of precisely machined, non hand fitted parts means that if a couple of buddies tear down their Glocks on one's bunk, and the barrels or slides or any other parts get mixed up, (who's who's?) big deal, put them together and know that they will function perfectly and shoot just as accurately regardless. It makes perfect sense to adopt this platform and its variants as needed for the modern military use. And it might make the difference in a soldier coming home from a bad place one day.

That said, I am one of those people who do not like the original large frame Glock. It does not fit my hand. The mid size such as the Model 19 feels good in the hand, the grip hump is then in the right place against my palm so that it doesn't make me point shoot over the top of my target. In all fairness, I have not yet had a chance to handle a Gen 4 version of a model 17 or any other large frame model. It may no longer be an issue. But in no way would I ever slight the performance and reliability of the Glock pistol.
 

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Special Operations Forces (SOF) are generally outside of the Walkin' or Big Army structure. SOCOM has its own budget and own procurement (I hate that word) and in many ways is an entirely separate service. It has been a while but my experience with them was that they could use anything they wanted and my memory of them was that they did not want the Beretta M9 at all. SEALs almost immediately went with the SIGs and USMC SOF kept on with M1911s. The CIA paramilitaries when last I saw them were using Brownings.

There has however been a lot of water under the bridge since last I knew one from the other but many of the serving operators were either very young servicemen or still in school Ten years will do that.

I know that the G19 has been the preferred sidearm of the contracting community and that it has an excellent performance record. Light, compact and dead reliable, the G19 may be butt ugly but I have begun to see them peeking out in holsters I see in photos.

I have a couple of G34s and have been very please with them in IDPA and annual DCJS qualification. I sort of believe in longer barrels in 9mm although modern expanding ammo sort of makes that requirement moot.

The rest of the Army and other services are going to have to make do with leftovers for a while. I entered service after Vietnam and I can tell you that once peace is declared there will be no new toys for a while. I think the M9s will be in the system for more than a few years to come. There may be better handguns but it is money that matters and I would not venture a bet on any new replacement small arms.
 

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I've been into guns for over forty years (especially handguns) and I have yet to understand why anyone would choose a big-chunky-cheaply-made-plastic-pistol over The Browning High Power (or a COLT M1911 for that matter).

And, I'd be willing to bet that most of the guys that's forced to carry a Glock would trade it, in a heartbeat, for The Magnificent 9mm Browning if they had the opportunity to compare the two and fire them side by side.
 

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Who uses what is interesting... Glocks, SIGs etc. are popular guns... but the 1911 continues to be wildly popular... just about every big gun maker has a 1911 line now...

S&W
SIG
Springfield
Auto Ordenance
Taurus
Ruger

Plus a bunch of second tier guns, Rock Island, Amscor, AmTak, Wilson, Baer et. al.

Despite what we hear about the wonder pistol, there are a LOT of 1911s being sold every year...

FWIW

Chuck
 

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I came along late to Glock. My first Glock was the G19 in 2006 followed shortly afterward by the Glock 26. I was impressed. I'm very fond of revolvers and I collect revolvers, but i still own the G19 and G26. Most of my handguns are cherished (yes I said cherished) items, but the two Glocks are strictly tools. They might be ugly, but they're simple to maintain, easy to use and reliable. Can't ask much more.
 

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I've been into guns for over forty years (especially handguns) and I have yet to understand why anyone would choose a big-chunky-cheaply-made-plastic-pistol over The Browning High Power (or a COLT M1911 for that matter).

QUOTE]

The main reason is the cocked-and-locked (carry cocked with safety on) thing. For LE's, carrying guns around with the hammer cocked is just bad public relations. For civilain carry, I am not warm to a gun that has a safety to release before it works. I don't assume my brain will be operating at high level if a muzzle flash goes off and a sizzling sound goes by my head.

I don't hate Glocks, but I think the Springfield XD is a far superior design if you want a striker fired point and pull weapon.

I love 1911's (own three) and HP's (own two) but not my choice for defense gun. That's a SW 686 7 shot revo.
 

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I don't hate Glocks, but I think the Springfield XD is a far superior design if you want a striker fired point and pull weapon.
I own an XD .45 and do not and never have owned a Glock. I won't say the XD is superior even though it is my preference between the two hands down. It is beefier and heavier duty in my opinion but pays for that in weight and size penalty in many reviews. The XD is also in no way inferior to the Glock. You are well served by either one that floats your boat in any way.
I love 1911's (own three) and HP's (own two) but not my choice for defense gun.
I own two 1911s, a 4" Springfield SS Loaded Champion and a Taurus PT1911 5", and a FEG Hi Power. All three required extensive custom work to make them function reliably with modern defensive ammo.

And I do carry them at times, but ironically the gun I carry most (daily) is my "Glock & Wesson" (S&W) Sigma SW9VE pistol. Glock style take down and assembly and simplicity, 100% reliable, accurate, and I am very satisfied with it. If Glock used this grip I would probably own a Glock but I settled for a knock off at half the price, but in no way am I unhappy with it. I did have to do a trigger job on it. But it was simple.

If I feel I have to go into a known bad area, my XD goes with me instead for the Thee Cs. Capacity, Caliber and Confidence. And my AR if necessary.
 

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Hello Bounty Hunter - there's plenty of folks (myself included) that's seen the Elephant while carrying a single-action automatic, and we didn't have one bit of trouble disengaging the safety, in fact, it was just a natural reaction.

Condition One Carry is a non-valid fear that the sheeple need to get over.
 

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I'll take a seat at Bobs table.

After having a lifetimes exposure to the 1911, as well as two decades of professional experience, it remains my weapon of choice. I have tried other designs over the years yet have always come back to the 1911 as nothing else seems to be as comfortable for me. For the last year I worked with the High Power and really enjoy the piece, yet ended up going back to old slab sides as my primary.

Still, I won't fault anyone who chooses a Glock, or similar fantastic plastic, for a carry weapon. From a practical standpoint they are argubally the most efficient handguns currently in use and are what I recommend to new shooters. I carried an issued Glock for uniformed duty for over a decade and will soon be issued another one. I have no complaints with that. However, to be frank, I don't care what SOCOM units use as their handgun. They're professionals who fit their tools to their context and I'm a professional who does the same. Our environments are different and I don't use their choice as a yardstick of severity for my own.

If anyone hasn't read Larry Vickers comments on the 1911/Glock issue you should. Larry had twenty plus years of experience with the Armys Det. Delta and served as the units head armorer. His comments on the 1911 have enraged a lot of the errornet fanboys yet he's really spot on and actually has a fondness for the design. In his opinion the 1911 is past its peak as a combat weapon. It can still be a capable weapon but is a much more hands-on design and it's user better have a passion for the platform. I suppose you could say it's the Harley Davidson of the gun world. In Larrys words, "If you want to treat your gun like your lawnmower get a Glock." His points are certainly valid and well made and well suited to his context. However, the 1911 continues to serve me well in my context. So just because a noted SOCOM member has an opinion it doesn't mean I use it as a rubber stamp on my own.

Another interesting viewpoint from the SOCOM community comes from another veteran: Pat Macnamara. Pat's also a twenty year veteran and currently active on the training circuit. His personal weapon of choice? A Springfield 1911 customized to match the weapon he was issued while actively serving. His weapon features things like an adjustable rear sight and a full length guide rod, featurs that most consider undesirable on a combat weapon. Yet Pat's seen the elephant and his choices aren't flippantly made. Here we have two differing viewpoints from within the same community.

If I was expecting to HALO jump into a hot combat zone, or have to operate in harsh environments for extended periods of time far from any maintenance facilities, my chocies of weaponry just might be different. I don't expect to do those things, nor do I sit in my basement playing Call of Duty fantasizing about them. So I make my own choices based upon my own needs and experience and suggest everyone else do the same.
 

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Excellent post, Trooper!

And guys - I'm not ragging on anyone that doesn't carry an HP or 1911, I just find it really odd that some don't.

Ya'll take care, and good luck to you all - no matter what you're packin'
 

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I side with Pat Macnamara, unpopular as his opinion may be. My CCW Colt Gold Cup Elite carries adjustable sights and a full length guide rod.
 

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Maybe Abninftr has hit the nail on the head as far as the SA (HP/1911) v. Glock-type handgun preferences go. Preference may largely be a generational thing. For example, I was astounded in the last shooting course I attended this past summer at how many of the young, tough, and competent LEO's had never even fired a revolver and had to be taught how to operate one. Most of them also had never experienced more than a cursory familiarization with the 1911, were by no means proficient with one, and didn't want to be.

I have also been impressed by how many of the well known and highly skilled trainers who, almost to a man, were once 1911 devotees are now totally committed to their Glocks. They also encourage their students to use Glocks (although most already do), and they gear their courses (i.e., standard drills) toward the point-and-pull platforms.

In the old days (say about 1999) when I started attending civilian shooting schools, the typical recommended handgun for civilian carry was the Sig 228 or 229 while each and every instructor packed a 1911 and did so with pride and confidence; they would cautiously invite some of their students to choose the same. About everything, including revolvers, was seen on the ranges back then, and Berettas, Sigs, Glocks, 1911's, and HP's were all about equally represented. Out of one class of about 22 or 23 this past summer, there were exactly three 1911's, one XD, one Sig 220 (me), and the rest were Glocks. About half the class were olpharts like me. ALL of the younger fellows were packing Glocks and appeared to have no interest whatever in even trying something else.
 

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I think Abninftr is spot on. When some of us were kids and when we first started our respective careers, choices were far more limited than today. If one wanted a powerful semi-automatic weapon the 1911 was pretty much it, and it was most likely a Colt of some flavor. At the time it was seen as state of the art and sometimes a little "commando", as revolvers were still widely spread.

I've never been one to claim the 1911 is the only handgun worth having, or even the best because I don't think there is such a thing. I've used it so long that it's operation is second nature and I can perform any repairs short of a catastrophic failure of the slide, frame or barrel. Its maintenance schedule isn't an issue as it's what I've always done. So from my perspective the 1911 works just as well as it always has.

On the other hand, younger coppers I associate with look at the Glock as the definition of a combat handgun and anyone who doesn't carry one can't be "tactical". They've grown up in a world of plastic handguns and look at applying a few drops of oil once a week as extreme maintenance. From their perspective it probably is. They also consider the five-inch 1911 I typically carry as being heavy. Well, I came of age when guns were made of steel and wood and rubber grips were a bit radical. Everything this side of a snub nose J-frame had some weight. In my perspective that's just par for the course. A couple of years ago I showed a young coworker my cherished S&W Model 27. I started my career with one and it's one of my favorite handguns. There was a time I could pull it out and others would oooooh and aaaaah over it. His reaction when I asked him if he knew what it was? "Well, it's a revolver." Sweet Fancy Moses!

So I agree it's all perspective. As long as we're capable with our weapon of choice we're good to go.
 

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Discussion Starter #18 (Edited)
I like the s/a HP/1911 ,but we all know there are reasons they are not the top pick of most goverments or L.E. Once great as a Lugar,Single action colt and they still have cult following,but for mass,s of Goverment,armed forces,L.E. they have been surpassed as a Model T,1957 chevy, Ford Pinto,VW aircooled bug was in the auto industry. While the HP is a good pistol its not very heavy duty being thin and gracefull with great gun lines these same points of goodness have weakened its design and durability in near 70 years of service. While most won,t wear one out shooting a few thousand rds. Plus -P and subgun ammo and a half century of training and wars have wore out and cracked some frames.and rattled them to looseness beyond T.E. specs. The 1911 in U.S. service was another 76 some years of hard use of old soft steel WW2 and before made 1911,s and a need to go Nato 9mm caused its dismise. The Goverments did not want the same old designs ,but some thing more modern for the mass.s. Stateside the 1911 is American has apple pie and much akin to John Wayne and the Single action Colt. The 1911 will be popular ,but never ever get back into all the holsters of the mass,s again or the Browning Highpower. Hold them enjoy them and they can still serve you grand.
 

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I've been into guns for over forty years (especially handguns) and I have yet to understand why anyone would choose a big-chunky-cheaply-made-plastic-pistol over The Browning High Power (or a COLT M1911 for that matter).
I carried several different HiPowers for decades, and always loved them. I still have my well used '73Charlie P35.
But, for serious use, I am all about Glock now. Either my G17 or my G26. I find they point very well for me, and I shoot them very well. 100% reliable, of course...Light weight with great capacity, and they can handle anything mother nature and constant carry throws at them.
Just a couple weeks ago, I took my shooting buddy to my rifle club. He has been a HiPower fan since the '70's, and had his personal HiPower he has owned and shot all that time. I had my G26. We were shooting at 10" steel plates my club has at 40yds, and at bowling pins on a close range stand...he did great, but I was outshooting him with the little Glock...It definately made him take a closer look at the G26.
BTW, the G26 is just about my favorite...It is just a blast to shoot, and I feel quite well armed indeed with it loaded with 10 or 12 rounds of Ranger +P+ 127gn JHP, with a 15rd G19 mag for a reload.
 

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Although I dearly love my 1911's, I can understand why the military went away from them. For civilian self defense, 8 rounds seems like plenty. In military use where multiple attackers are more likely, I think I would want more than 8 rounds in the pistol. The Hi-Power is fine as far as reliability, but I would prefer something bigger than 9mm if limited to ball ammo. I have owned a Glock 19, and it worked fine, but it's still 9mm. I don't have any experience with double stack 1911's, but it sounds like a good choice to me, if reliable.

At my age, if I end up in military service, we'll be defending the homeland with whatever we can find, so none of this will matter.
George
 
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