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Hi there Stephen,

Mr. Marshall pretty much has summed up what I consider to be "flights of fancy" for a lot of people that purchase handguns and carry them for self-defense.

I was taught in my CWP class that there is alway's a legal outcome of a armed encounter. In the words of my instructor, "you may survive the encounter, but you may not survive the legal outcome."

Thank you for sharing Mr. Marshall's article and the "reality check" from his writing this morning.

Chris
 

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Hi Mr. Camp,

About the only thing in that article I disagree with is assessment of strangers. Is the stranger being attacked elderly? Disabled? A child? Anyone else obviously not able to defend himself?

This is a dilemma we have to face as armed private citizens. The way I approach it is to try to get to know all those who I see on a weekly basis - if not their names, then their attitudes and get them comfortable enough with me to establish a comfortable reputuoir should they want, or be comfortable answering me if I should decide to speak.

There are several I have met this way who I would trust to watch my back.

My solution is not for everyone. I live in a fairly small town where I can run down the line until I'm a friend of a friend of a friend. Big cities tend to be harder I've found.

It's also hard as I'm fairly quiet by nature - as I'm sure many are. But, I believe going against one's nature in some things is better than not having at least a small clue as to who the good guy is in an altercation.

In most cases however, I'm content to sit back and use the cell phone. Sometimes I don't know who the good guy is.

Josh <><
 

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Quite correct Josh.

In addition, having a lot of people know you casually can be useful when they are being interviewed: "Yes Sir, I've seen him around here for years, don't know his name but he's always been pleasant and never causes any trouble."

Besides, you get to meet some nice people that way. Being pleasant and helpful to strangers reduces the number of strangers. :)


Regards,

Pat
 
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I look at it this way: don't be afraid to get involved, if need be, but be as sure as possible that need indeed be!

Also, I liked the part where he commented that he carries a cell phone, oc spray, a pistol, and a light. If you carry only a gun, then you're not really concerned with self-defense; you just want an excuse to shoot somebody.
 

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chubbypigeon said:
Also, I liked the part where he commented that he carries a cell phone, oc spray, a pistol, and a light. If you carry only a gun, then you're not really concerned with self-defense; you just want an excuse to shoot somebody.
I don't necessarily agree with that sir. I have a new job which requires me to *gag* dress nicely
It's not so hard right now concealing my Taurus, but when next summer rolls around I just won't be able to have the cover garment on and still look casually presentable. I might find some room for some OC but it's either that or the cell phone, and the cell is just necessary.

That will require a J-Frame in my left pocket and relocation of my knife. I won't have room for the light nor the two extra mags I carry. IOW, up until now I've dressed around my pistol and other defensive stuff; come summer, I'll have to tone it down and carry what I can. I think this goes double for the smaller people who carry.

Josh <><
 

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I don't necessarily agree with that sir. I have a new job which requires me to *gag* dress nicely
It's not so hard right now concealing my Taurus, but when next summer rolls around I just won't be able to have the cover garment on and still look casually presentable. I might find some room for some OC but it's either that or the cell phone, and the cell is just necessary.

That will require a J-Frame in my left pocket and relocation of my knife. I won't have room for the light nor the two extra mags I carry. IOW, up until now I've dressed around my pistol and other defensive stuff; come summer, I'll have to tone it down and carry what I can. I think this goes double for the smaller people who carry.

Josh <><
I would tend to agree with you Josh. As a person of short stature(5'7"), by the time I try to pack a full size 1911, two spare mags, a backup gun, a fixed blade knife, a folding knife, OC spray, a collapsable baton, a cellphone, a flashlight, a wallet, keys, and a pair of prescription sunglasses...I've pretty much run out of room.

One must be realistic about what they're capable of carrying. I can pack a fullsize 1911, and then pack a spare mag and cellphone on the weakside. Leaving a flashlight, a BUG, keys, and a knife to conceal in my pockets. That's REASONABLE if I've got a cover garment and a decent part of shorts or pants.

Once you move to summer though it's a different ball game, a flashlight, a knife, and your BUG as your primary tends to become the name of the game. It's simply NOT possible to carry everything deemed necessary for proper self defense. Instead one should put emphasis on using what they can carry in a variety of ways.

I would also note, that if someone has given you sufficient reason as a private citizen to have to attack them with OC Spray. Then, there is probably sufficient reason to use a higher level of force. Each case is different, though.

-Rob
 
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I suppose so, but still, it's good to be able to show in a courtroom that you were willing to use nonlethal force.

I don't go anywhere without my oc.

I stand by my statement, up to this point: if you have an option to carry a nonlethal, and you don't, then you're probably only carrying the gun because you think it makes you a tough guy, and you're likely just itching for a chance to show how tough you are by shooting somebody.

I guess there will be exceptions, like people who just don't trust OC spray, maybe. (Personally, I do trust it, given that my target is sober. I've been hit with the stuff, myself, before -- not fun. It might not stop someone cold, but it will make them much easier to get away from, or otherwise deal with.) However, I think a lot of people who go CCW are only doing so because they are under the very illusions discussed in that article; they think they're going to "cap a scumbag," and then be hailed as a hero.

I don't think there are many, if any, of those sorts on these forums, but we all know they're out there.

Truth be told, I'm probably preaching to the choir.
 

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I appreciate chubby's approach to this subject. There are persons on some other sites, one in particular, that say those of us that carry anything less than a 9mm or .40cal are just pure stupid. These same individuals advocate and preach "have a warrior attitude" and most of these types have a legal "license to kill" and a "department" to back them up and take care of any legal and court costs in case they do shoot somebody. You know what I'm saying. I won't mention any sites by name 'cause some members of those sites also post here.
Us civilians don't have that luxury and unless we have the money for a good lawyer, we will probably be convicted of manslaughter unless we have good witnesses and have probably been wounded ourself.
So I like what chubby, I think, posted on another thread, and I will continue to carry my "old lady's gun" in my pocket, hoping I never have to use it. Run for cover and try to use your cell phone and maybe one of those "warrior types" will show up in uniform with his big honkin' Beretta.
Whatever, who cares what an oldgoat says anyway.
og
 

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Hi Josh,

In South Carolina, they have a statue attached to the concealed carry law that is known as the "alter ego" rule which basically states that if you come to the aid of an individual that is the victim of a "imminent and deadly threat" that you can use deadly force and do not have "a duty to retreat".

However, unlike the "good samaritan" laws that hold you harmless if you render aid in a medical emergency, there is no provision to hold you legally not without harm. Again here, we are putting ourselves in legal jeoprady.

I agree with OG, most of us do not have a self-defense savy lawyer on a long term retainer to defend in court when we are accused of manslaugher or attempted murder of a high and aggravaded nature.

I think Mr. Marshall is trying to remind us first hand that carrying a concealed firearm is not without peril.

Chris
 

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absolutely correct, Chris, and I wish my state would do something like Florida did and give us better legal rights for self defense. Right now my CCW permit should have added to it..."Use at your own risk".
og
 
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In addition to agreeing with most of the above, I don't think that as a non-leo I have the training or experience to intervene effectively.

By effectively, I mean in a manner that doesn't end up making things worse. Using a cell, jotting down a license plate number, those are things I would do and have done in the past.

I also figure if I get involved in something like that, even intervening to save my own life, I might have to spend about what a new Tahoe costs in legal fees just to get through the Grand Jury. Let alone potential civil suit costs.

Max
 
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If someone is being beaten within an inch of his or her life, or very obviously in grave danger - I will respond with an escalation of force ending at the top (lethal force). Every point raised is valid though - you need to be prepared and know you're in the right. This is why you escalate - but be prepared to do so quickly. If you see what you think is a beat down - draw your weapon and shoot an undercover cop making an arrest on a local child rapist - you're up a creek with no paddle, and a waterfall coming up quickly. I've got guard coming up in about 10 minutes, so I can't elaborate on escalation of force yet - but I probably will, if I remember.

Anthony
 
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I do not like the "sprays" as they do not work very well. If they will not stop me, and I have been sprayed as part of training, then I have very serious doubts as to their ability to stop most people. Always attempt to use less than lethal force. Remember that the elbow is the weakest joint on your body. If you can break that on someone then you may just stop an attack. But, and I will repeat what has been said here several times before, make sure you know what is going on before you step in. If you call the police on 911, you have done what "society" requires. My Christian beliefs state that I should go farther, but the law does not want to recognize my beliefs, in most cases.

There are no easy answers to a very hard question.
 
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