[Josh Smith]

Hi All,

Years back I worked at Autozone. A guy came in carrying openly as that's a choice we have in Indiana (though one still needs the permit).

I asked what it was. He said it was a Walther PPK. I said, ".380 or .32?" He said "9mm." I said, "No way." He said "Yup" and proceeded to let me handle it.

I looked it over and it said 9mm on the slide. The shells it held were 9x19.

He told me it was extremely rare as only a few thousand were made in 9x19, or imported in 9x19, or something along those lines.

I've not seen one since.

So, 9mm PPK... anyone know anything about these?

Thanks,

Josh <><

 

[abninftr]

Josh, the PPK in its original form was available in 9mm KURZ. Kurz in German means 'short'. That is the German name for the .380 ACP. German-sold guns, and the pre-war ones were marked in German.

There was also a larger model - not the PP with a fatter, heavier slide chambered in 9mm Polizei or 9mm Police. This was a cartridge with performance and size between the .380 and 9X19 mm.

 

[Guest]

Josh,

I have often lamented the lack of a 9mm (9x19) PPK. It would be an awsome combination of size and power. Now you tell me it might exist.... Hmmmm. We need more information.

fof

 

[Josh Smith]

I have no idea if it was a custom job. I really don't even know how well it would hold together.

'Twould be cool though.

Josh <><

 

[kcii]

Hi Josh,
I believe abninftr is correct in his id of the pistol you saw. The pistol was the PP super and was chambered for the 9x18 police cartridge. Pistol was produced around 1972-79 and, from what I understand, was only adopted by the Bavarian Police to the tune of some 2000 pistols.

Regards,
KCII

 

[Josh Smith]

It could have been, and I respect what you all say... but it distinctly said 9x19 on it.

I've been searching and I've found hints (the Google search will lead to a dead link) that there were 9x19 barrels made for these fairly recently.

Thanks,

Josh <><

 

[abninftr]

KCII correctly named the 9mm Polizei model. I've seen and handled probably all of three PP Supers over the years. The slide and frame was beefed up and barely resembled the original model. Remember, the PP/PPK is a blow back gun designed for a relatively low pressure cartridge. A 9x19 generates substantially more pressure.

 

[randomman]

Josh, I'm not sure how the PPK design could withstand the increased pressure of 9x19 over the standard 9x17 cartridge. The PPK design is a blowback pistol...IF and I mean IF you could get the pistol to function with 9x19, I think it would rattle to bits after several hundred rounds.

If I'm not mistaken though, when Carl Walther first began pistol designs for what would later become the P38, he scaled up the PP design and chambered it for 9x19. They only built a few of these guns and they would be worth upwards of 15 to 25k. They also aren't considered safe to fire.

-Rob

 

[abninftr]

Me thinks the mystery gun was a PPK chambered in "9MM KURZ"; AKA .380 ACP.

There is absolutely no way a PP Super could be mystaken for a PPK. Nor is it likely that a PPK was ever chambered for 9X19mm, even experimentally, given the lightness of the frame.

 

[Guest]

Now we're talking real "Like a brick through a plate glass window" performance!

 

[lelandray]

AIM Surplus has an eastern European copy of the *PP* (edit) in 9x18 for sale now.

It sure LOOKS like a PPK, but it's not.

http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/Hungarian_PA63_9x18Mak_Pistol.html

 

[kcii]

abninftr,
I agree that it would be tough to mistake a PP Super for a PPK. What made me think of the PP Super was the fact that it was described as "rare" and only a few thousand made. That's hardly a description that would fit the PPK. However I've met people who think that every piece of junk they own is "rare" and "valuable". Here's a link to a pic of the PP Super for anyone who may be curious to what one looks like. www.world.guns.ru/handguns/hg148-e.htm

 

[abninftr]

The Makarov resembles the Walther, but there are very significant differences.

KCII, you're right there Mate.

 

[flusher]

Hard weapon to come by

 

[abninftr]

That is a beautiful(pre-war, correct?) 9mm Kurz example complete with the original brown plastic grips, and "crocodile leatherette" box. Very nice.

 

[Josh Smith]

Gents,

Would it have been possible for him to mistake a 9x18p for a 9x19 and load up with 9x19? Did they have enough room in the chambers for that?

I do know that the "9x19" on the slide wasn't up to the quality of the rest of the gun -- looked like it had been thrown on as an afterthought, almost Drimmeled in fact.

Like I said, it's been a while, only talked with him briefly, and haven't seen him since, so I can't inquire further, which I'd like to do.

Thanks for the responses thus far.

Josh <><

 

[larry]

Beautiful PPK and box, but not pre-war: Ulm/Do (for Donau) marked Walthers are post-war. Pre-war were made in Zella-Mehlis and marked accordingly. When Soviets occupied the East part of Germany in 1945, the Walther familiy fled to the west. They ultimately resumed production in Ulm during the 50s.

I have the privilege to own a pre-war (1939-40) PP that I bought NIB for 800 francs (550 $) at a gun show here: unshot, with original box, tool, 1940 box of 7,65 cartridges, reserve mag, fake cartridge and a small metal box for a plastic oil bottle and patch. A gem.

L.

 

[abninftr]

Thanks Larry. I can't keep Ulm-Donau and Zella-Mehlis straight in my mind without l looking at a map to see which was east of 'the fence'.

 

[flusher]

Larry has it right.
I did say 1967 in my title.

 

[larry]

Hi all,

Checked my books yesterday evening: no regular PP or PPK are mentionned either by Dieter Marshall or Manfred Kersten. Walther made some prototypes for 9 x 19 during the 30s (model AP, for Armee Pistole) before turning to a locked design and the HP/P38. You must remember that the 9 x 17 (9 Short) is a low pressure cartridge (1400 bars CIP) and the 9 x 19 (9 luger or para) a high pressure one (2600).

In his book ("Walther, eine deutsche Legende"), Manfred Kersten mentions - and pictures - a prototype from the 80s based on the PP for the 9 x 19. This sleek pistol - very similar to the original PP - used a unique locking bar under the barrel, inspired by the locking system of the P38. The barrel was detachable and the system functionned on the short recoil principle. Kersten shows also a fake 9 x 19 PP. He writes that these fakes appear from time to time and warns against any use as the PP is not up to the pressures of the 9 x 19.

In the last issue (january) of german magazine "Visier", there is an interesting story about the PP and PPK, from an historical point of view. It begins with a picture of some very rare animals (I suspect that Dieter Mashall lent his pieces): a PP Super in 7,65, a double magazine PP and a long slide PP. Interesting prototypes showing that Walther made a lot of experiments around their best sellers.

Conclusion: I don't believe one second in a genuine production PP or PPK in 9 x 19. Even the PP Super, (10'000 produced in 9 x 18 police and 1300 in 9 x 17 Short), using strong modern steels, was larger and heavier (780 g.) to handle the 9 x 18 police (2000 bars CIP) in a blowback design.

Bye

(Sorry for the long post but my poor english doesn't lead to concision...)