6.5MM version of the 6MM SAW?

2932 Views 10 Replies 3 Participants Last post by crash, Jan 11, 2007

crash

Discussion Starter · Dec 21, 2006

Does anybody know if there was ever a 6.5MM version of the proposed 6MM SAW cartridge developed? If so, what are/were the specifications as far as bullet weight, muzzle velocity, SD, BC, etc.?

Crash ???

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fliegler

· #2 · Jan 7, 2007

I recall reading about the development in Precision Shooting and what it entailed was tests of varioius diameters and bullt weights between 6mm and 6.5mm for retained energy, pentration, trajetory and functioning. When all the tests were "weighed" the 6.3mm (.277") was the clear winner overall. The original impetus for improvement was "put down" power down range, i.e. they don't get back up and shoot again.
Bud

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jimhigginbotham

· #3 · Jan 7, 2007

If you are referring to the original Squad Automatic Weapon project from many years ago, I am not sure. The original 6mm SAW used the existing 5.56mm (.223 Rem) case.

Around the same time many folks were experimenting with wildcating the same case for use in Thompson Center pistols and they were used in .257, .264, .277 .284 and .30 diameter with the .264 and .284 becoming actual calibers, 6.5 and 7mm TCU. There is also the little .25 Wooters which is the same thing in .257 but it remains a wildcat. Actually the .300 Whisper is a quasi-factory round, I think Cor-Bon actually ran some.

Of late on Special Forces Group has experimented with bigger cases from the .30 Rem to the .220 PPC in a wide variety of cases. Their recommendation ended up with the experimental adoption and actual issue of M4s in 6.8 SPC.

Indepentendly, Alexander Arms has been floating the "6.5 Grendel" which is a modified 6mm PPC case pushing .264 bullets.

Lots of stuff out there!

Onward,
Jim H.

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crash

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jan 9, 2007

If you are referring to the original Squad Automatic Weapon project from many years ago, I am not sure. The original 6mm SAW used the existing 5.56mm (.223 Rem) case.

Onward,
Jim H.

Jim,

The neck on the 6mm SAW sure looks a lot longer to me than the neck on the 5.56mm case.....

Crash

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jimhigginbotham

· #5 · Jan 10, 2007

Crash;

Do you have a link to a picture or anything. I actually have a Barrel and 6mm SAW ammo, but it is possible that there was an experimental round before the final one.

Official cartridge designation is 6X45mm

Jim.

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crash

Discussion Starter · #6 · Jan 10, 2007

Crash;

Do you have a link to a picture or anything. I actually have a Barrel and 6mm SAW ammo, but it is possible that there was an experimental round before the final one.

Official cartridge designation is 6X45mm

Jim.

Jim,

I will find one and forward to you....

Crash

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crash

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jan 10, 2007

Crash;

Do you have a link to a picture or anything. I actually have a Barrel and 6mm SAW ammo, but it is possible that there was an experimental round before the final one.

Official cartridge designation is 6X45mm

Jim.

Jim,

Try this one: www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Assault.htm

Crash

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jimhigginbotham

· #8 · Jan 11, 2007

Crash;

I see. If you note the 1st type (on the left) has a case about as long as the 5.56X45 but the shoulder is set back making the neck longer. This round, when loaded was too long to fit in m-16 mags and was dropped pretty early I think. Same with the Aluminum cased ammo that had a slightly longer case and an even longer O.A.L.

A lot of this had to do with the fact that the platform for the Squad Automatic Weapon (SAW) had not been selected. When it was finally settled that the FN-249 (MINIMI) was to be it and that it should take M-16 mags as an emergency issue then it was all over for the 6mm but one last try was to just make both M-16 & SAW in 6X45MM.

It never really took off.

The factory ammo I have wasn't too impressive (a 75gr bullet at 2550 fps) but safe handloads pushed the 85gr BTSP to around 2750 in a 20" barrel.

Jim

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crash

Discussion Starter · #9 · Jan 11, 2007

Crash;

I see. If you note the 1st type (on the left) has a case about as long as the 5.56X45 but the shoulder is set back making the neck longer. This round, when loaded was too long to fit in m-16 mags and was dropped pretty early I think. Same with the Aluminum cased ammo that had a slightly longer case and an even longer O.A.L.

Jim

Jim,

As I said before, it looks to me like that long neck would allow you to seat a longer, heavier bullet, e.g., 140 gr, deep enough without extending down into the body of the case. I know this is asking a lot, but if you necked it up to 6.5mm and then used a 140 gr bullet in a rifle with a 20" - 24" barrel, what kind of velocity do you think you'd get?

Crash

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jimhigginbotham

· #10 · Jan 11, 2007

Crash,
This is a wild guess but the round looks kind of similar to the 6.5 Grendel. I suspect with a 140 you would be getting around 2400 to 2500 from a 20". I think the Grendel is set up for a 120 (which is not really all that bad sectional density wise) at about 2700+ from a 20". A 140 6.5 is *very* long.

It certainly has some merit for long range stuff in a carbine. Tactical penetration is not bad either.

Jim

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crash

Discussion Starter · #11 · Jan 11, 2007

Crash,
This is a wild guess but the round looks kind of similar to the 6.5 Grendel. I suspect with a 140 you would be getting around 2400 to 2500 from a 20". I think the Grendel is set up for a 120 (which is not really all that bad sectional density wise) at about 2700+ from a 20". A 140 6.5 is *very* long.

It certainly has some merit for long range stuff in a carbine. Tactical penetration is not bad either.

Jim

Jim,

My purpose in asking these questions is that it looks to me like "my" 6.5mm SAW would be a good compromise for both a defensive(I'm staying away from the terms "assault" and "Main Battle Rifle") weapon and a hunting rifle. With the 123 Scenar as used in the Grendel it should be pretty good for defensive purposes and with a 140 gr bullet it should work well for small (Texas Hill Country whitetails) to medium (mulies) deer.

I think a semi-auto with a 20" barrel ought to do both jobs.
Now, of course, all I have to do is find some 6mm SAW brass, neck it up to 6.5mm and have a rifle made up for it....oh well, a fella can dream, can't he?

Crash

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