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Mr. OG,

Yes sir I certainly do, and I intend to post them as soon as possible (tips my hat).

Unfortunately my desert shooting buddy stopped by this morning on his way to work, and said he had to work this weekend on a new 7x24 surveillance. So now it looks like next weekend, maybe.

twoguns
 

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thanks, twoguns, we can wait.

And Jim, your report that .45Gap adopted by NY and PA is most interesting. A writer in the April 2007 issue of Guns&Ammo magazine (p.77) thinks .45Gap is on the way out. If you get to read it let us know your thoughts.

og
 

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OG;

I find the adoption of the .45 GAP a little bit surprizing myself. I can only speculate that the agencies have decided that the ballistics of the standard .45 ACP (with is basically the same as the GAP). That the Glock design is of some advantage (they are functional guns that is for sure) but that the 21 is too large for many hands (probably also true, I can barely hold one myself and I certainly cannot operate it at speed - though it is more than adequately accurate).

It will be interesting to see if it is still in use 10 years from now but I have no particular insight or predictions.

There is a trend out there and that is, with the current strategy of "getting up a crowd" of officers to answer a dangerous situation (not unsound I might add) there is also this idea of "contagious gunfire" and subjects are getting shot a lot (I know of two in the last half of last year that went 68 rounds and 81 rounds - and those are just the hits!)

This is certainly not the norm but it is becoming less rare. It is something a savvy chief will note if he is paying attention but I am not sure just how much the choice of caliber will have to do with it (If I go by my meager experiece and records, it could make some difference but there are so many complicating factors I hesitate to say for sure).


Not much help :-/
Jim H.
 

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Discussion Starter · #45 ·
Gents,

Continueing the saga of the .357 Sig vs. .40 S & W...
Well, the barrel for my Hi-Power is on it's way. That's the good news. Now the down side of the .357 Sig...COST.
The only ammo I could find in Salem was Winchester USA 125 gr FMJ's at $20.99 per 50 rounds. I bought two boxes as I have to shoot something...
Damn, I could have bought five boxes of 9mm or 3 boxes of .45 ACP for the same cost. Not to mention availability and selection suck...reserving judgement for now.
On the plus side I did handle the Sig 239 DAK and was favorably impressed...
Time will tell.

Wes
 

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Howdy folks,

Well the good news my buddy and I made it out to shoot today, and neither one of us managed to kill the chronograph the first time out. The bad news I left most my 357 Sig reloads along with my FN HP 40 in a bag sitting in the apartment, and only realized it when we were setting things up. So the only data I will provide for now are various factory loads fired in my Sig P229 (3.9" barrel) and Sig P226 (4.4" barrel). I checked and confirmed that a Sig P239 has a 3.6" barrel, so those of you with that pistol will have to do the math, it is beyond me, sorry. I think there was operator error when I got home with my unit, so I can only provide average mv for 5 shot groups, and extreme spread of those 5 shots. (Fortunately I wrote the mv down for each shot, or I would be one unhappy idiot operator now too, lol.)

Note: I edited this data to include 40 S&W loads fired from my Kahr K40 (3.5" barrel). I went back to look at the Kahr site and they state this barrel has polygonal rifling, so it may not prove to be a valid comparison tool for something akin to a P239 (3.6" barrel). But since I fired these same rounds in a third pistol, I decided to add that data too.

Because of the polygonal rifling, this may be a bit deceptive too for comparison purposes. I noted the Kahr out performed the longer P229 barrel (3.5 v 3.9) and even beat the P226 barrel (3.5 v 4.4) on one round. But I found the results interesting and decided I would include the data.

I will have to admit the "little fella" did seem to hold his own with the "big boys". But he did prove to be a handful at times too, lol.
But in a real world situation, I doubt if I would have noticed the increased felt recoil either.

[Edited on 03-14-07 to include the stock numbers of various loads fired.]

40 S&W loads:

Rem 155 JHP [R40SW1]
K40 avg 1212.8, es 12
229 avg 1179.8, es 33
226 avg 1222.0, es 30

Win 155 JHP [RA40155HP]
K40 avg 1219.4, es 34
229 avg 1203.8, es 50
226 avg 1221.8, es 17

Fed 155 JHP [XM40SWB]
K40 avg 1195.0, es 41
229 avg 1185.4, es 35
226 avg 1223.8, es 32

Spr 155 GDHP [53961]
K40 avg 1205.8, es 36
229 avg 1182.6, es 27
226 avg 1242.2, es 12

Spr 165 GDHP [23970]
K40 avg 1157.2, es 23
229 avg 1145.2, es 17
226 avg 1173.8, es 25

Fed 180 HS [P40HS1G]
K40 avg 1015.6, es 17
229 avg 985.3, es 26
226 avg 1010.2, es 17


357 Sig loads:

Win 125 FMJ [Q4309]
229 avg 1346.8, es 10
226 avg 1387.4, es 32

Win 125 JHP [USA357SJHP]
229 avg 1384.0, es 31
226 avg 1394.6, es 28

Cor-Bon 125 JHP [SD357SIG125]
229 avg 1382.4, es 29
226 avg 1421.0, es 55

Spr 125 GDHP [23918]
229 avg 1402.2, es 16
226 avg 1441.2, es 17

During our next session I will try to shoot some 357 Sig reloads and post those results along with some limited 40 S&W reloads I shot today. But I decided just to keep the first data all factory loads for a more logical comparison.

I can tell already my chronograph will be going out in the desert with us on each outing now. It does add a new element to things. Next time I will try to remember to bring my FN HP40 and fire it with both the 40 and 357 factory loads as well. But given my buddy's work life, and the govt cell my office was "kind enough" to give him, weekends are rarely his own now too, lol.

Hope folks find this interesting. I was a bit surprised at some of these results. It will be interesting to see if they basically repeat closely on our next outing now.

Shoot well and shoot often,

twoguns
 

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Hello Mr. Twoguns,

First off, Wow! and thanks for the data. It does indeed cast a different light on the two cartridges and there is a discernable difference indeed!

There is one comparison that I would enjoy seeing.

That is a comparison between the .357 Magnum and the .357 SIG since folks seem to draw on that for a shooting comparison when folks strike up a conversation on the .357 SIG touting its benefits.

Again, thank you and I am happy to see you listed the Speer Got Dot load up there for comparison.

Chris
 

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Excellent work, twoguns, your new chrony is working right. You got a difference between barrel lengths just as you should, evidence you did things right. Like Chris said, the difference between the two calibers is eye opening.

Two questions.....did you have to use the white plastic screens on your chrony? And what distance did you use it at?


og
 

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Mr. OG,

Yes sir, as it was my first attempted use, and we were out in the desert under what later became a fairly hot sun, I decided to use the plastic screens. I wanted to control as many factors as I could, especially in my first effort, to maximize the results.

But again sir, I do thank you for your excellent suggestion of the brand to purchase. It reminds me of my reaction to my first set of nightsights - why did I wait so long to get this.

Btw, I also shot the 40 S&W loads out of a Kahr K40, and will probably modify my original post to add a different barrel lenght in for comparison purposes. My buddy also shot an assorted of .380 acp rounds he had through his Walther PPK/S yesterday, I will post separately in case it will help the .380 acp fans.

Again Mr. OG, my hat is off to you sir for your help in my choosing what appears to be an excellent chronograph, and more than worth the money spent (tips my hat).

twoguns
 

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thanks, good friend, each piece of chrony data adds to the data base.


just one more item...... the distance away that you shot at the chrony??. important piece of data since there are many opinions about that.

og
 

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Howdy folks,

I modified my previous post listing chronograph results, by adding data fired in my Kahr K40, with a 3.5" barrel. Initially I expected it might serve as a valid comparison for the P239 pistol with its 3.6" barrel.

However, since the Kahr barrel has polygonal rifling, I am not sure this is a valide comparison for that barrel length. It did out-perform all loads fired in the longer P229 (3.5 v 3.9) and even bet the P226 in one load (3.5 v 4.4).

But since I had the data I decided to include it in that post.

I have to admit, the "little fella" did impress me, and made me happy it rides in my boot with me as my back up pistol. Now if I could only find a company that would make me a K40 barrel chambered for 357 Sig. I think that would be an amazing package to shoot and carry.

I did notice the Kahr was causing about half of the brass to eject with some signigifcant dents in the cases mouths. So I may have to relegate my oldest brass for use in the Kahr now too. Years ago I owned an H&K P9S pistol in 9mm, and I seem to recall now it was doing the same with its brass. I know both have polygonal rifling, so I am making a logical, but perhaps invalid conclusion here. But I thought it was worth mentioning too.

twoguns
 

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Mr. OG,

I had my chronograph set up 8 feet from the pistol muzzles.

My target was probably 10 yards away. I knew some of my loads might be subsonic, expecially some .380acp rounds my buddy wanted to shoot. So we chose 8 feet to eliminate potential error messages on the subsonic loads. We had maybe 5 error messages the entire day of shooting.

Since you raised the point, what distance do you think is best for handguns and rifles in your experience?

Thanks again. I am still learning this new equipment, so all suggestions are welcome.

twoguns
 

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thank you, that is interesting info since for me 8 feet doesn't always work and I have found 10 feet to be about right for handgun readings. I note you had 5 error messages and that may be due to being a little too close. What happens is the chrony "sees" some of the blast (air movement) from the pistol that confuses the reading. When I get error messages I just move the chrony a little further away. I've found 10 feet for handgun about right.
For rifle, depending on caliber, I've found more than 10 feet needed, but I don't have good numbers for that yet. I won't get to do any chrony work for a week or more yet.

Now, the distance from the muzzle will not change the reading, if you get a reading. It will be accurate no matter if 8 feet away or 10 feet away. So don't worry about that. It's only when you get an error message that the chrony was confused. I've heard some people say you need to be 15 feet away, but then it gets harder to aim accurately between the wires.

Thanks for the fine information.

Other opinions about this will be appreciated.

og

another thought...I always shoot at a target first to verify the POI and POA since each handgun is a little different that way just in case it might have a POI a little high or one side or the other. That way I know better where exactly to aim between the wires so as not to hit one. Since you didn't "kill" the chrony or hit wires, your aim was excellent also.

Also, if you have the .380 numbers, please do post those in a separate thread.
 

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Discussion Starter · #54 ·
Twoguns, OG, and all.

Thanks for contributing to the data base and giving us more definitive data that we can base decisions on. Sounds like that factory Gold Dot load is a real screamer...
Let's see, brass and dies on order...barrel enroute. Should have some results to post in the next week or so...

Wes
 

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Mr. OG and others,

Thanks for your tips on the chrony, it is new ground to me, and all suggestions are appreciated. I will probably set up at 10' next time. I had an issue with my tripod, and had to use cardboard boxes, which actually worked much better than we had hoped. So once we had things set up, I was hesitant to move it in case I cursed us, lol. Next time I will set it up at 10' and see how that works for me. By then I should have the tripod issue worked out as well.

I was a bit surprised to see my Gold Dots were faster than the Cor-Bons as I did not expect that at all. It is hard to tell how long ammo has been sitting on a dealer's shelf, but Gary sells a lot of ammo, so I doubt if the Cor-Bons were very old at all. The Gold Dots I purchased from him within a month of the Cor-Bons. As I said before, it will be interesting to see if this data appears to hold true over time.

Mr. OG, when my buddy showed up with his Walther PPK/S and assorted boxes of ammo, I sort of grinned. I was thinking you might enjoy that data. I will gladly post it for you and others sir. I had given his a partial box of Super Vel JHPs I had purchased about 30 years ago, when I carried a PPK/S working undercover narcotics. We both were amazed at how they clocked 30 years later.

I have to admit the performance I obtained from the Kahr K40 makes me feel a bit more comfortable knowing it is my backup now. The down side is it tends to be a bit brutal on brass as well, so I will have to save my older 40 brass to shoot in the K40.

Mr. OG, I will work up the data on the .380acp rounds and post them shortly.

Thanks again for your suggestions sir.

Mr. Wes,

Keep us in the loop on how things go for you with the 357 Sig. If I can help at all with reloading tips for it, please do not be bashful. Also the post Mr. Chris made recently in reloading the 357 Sig would be worth reading by anyone who is going to load the round. (Hopefully Mr. OG will not mind my plugging my room like that in his, lol).

twoguns
 

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Mr. twoguns,

I was suprised to see the Speer Gold Dot data as well and its significant comparison to the suppositely hotter Corbon ammunition. That really is an eye opener for me as well. I really do enjoy the chronograph reports and it does confirm "real world" data as compared to what I read on the manufacturers web sites.

Wes, if I can help in any way with the .357 SIG data, please feel free to PM me and I hope I didn't post anything to make anyone think that reloading this round is difficult to do.

If I can reload it, than anyone can.

Chris
 

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Chris Stephens,

I plan to do a comparison between my Model 19 and/or 66 (both 4 inchers) with 125 gr .377 magnum rounds, and my BHP with a .357 Sig barrel - as soon as I get the .357 Sig barrel installed. That might take a few weeks, I have some other efforts to get done first. I'll probably do a model 60 with a 3 inch barrel to, just for fun.

If someone else gets it done first, great, but I will get to it eventually and post a thread on it.

elb
 

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Hi there ELB,

That would be a fantastic comparison to see if the "real world" data matches the legendary comparison folks make between the .357 SIG and .357 Magnum.

So far, I've not found a side by side comparison on the internet.

Chris
 

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Chris - Heaven's sake, what are you doing up at 3 in the morning? OK, I am up also, but I have a noisy, violent T-Storm to blame it on (and a dog who woke me up to warn me it was coming...
:))

elb
 

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Hello ELB,

My oldest son has to be up at 5AM to be on the High School Bus at 6AM.

In about 2 months however, my son will be in the US Marines, so someone else will be waking him up


Maybe I can sleep in then after school's out for the summer. In the meantime, I use the time to do whatever strikes my fancy, i.e. reload cases, check the forum.

Chris
 
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