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OG,

As usualy sir, I thank you for your suggestions. I ended up following your advice. I ended up getting the B Master, because I liked that it would save my data when I turned it off. I also debated it and decided that the remote could turn into a real plus for me down the road if my situation just continues to worsen over time.

I went on the Midway site after getting your suggestions (again thank you sir) and the praise for this brand was basically universal.

I also appreciate your suggestions too, as this well certainly be "new territory" for me as well. I could just as easily send you a pm, but I think others who might be debating buying a chornograph might benefit from your experience with one too sir.

When you say "screens" are you referring to the white plastic like parts that came with mine - that fit on top of the rods. Or are you talking about some type of add on accessory? Given my location, I am blessed with far more "severe clear sunny" days than I am cloudy days. All my work with mine will be outside directly under the sunlight.

Again Mr. OG, thanks for your original suggestion and your tips here. I really do look forward to adding this new element to my shooting sessions (tips my hat).

twoguns
 

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Good purchase, the B model will do very well.
Yes, the "screens" are those white, plastic pieces that fit on the wire bars. Have to use both sets of wire bars for the screens to fit, they are wide. But with clear, blue sky the screens act like immitation clouds so the chrono can "see" the shadow of the bullet.
If yours has a remote readout, where you can read it right next to you, that is good. Mine doesn't have that and the display is small so I can't see it 10 feet away and have to use some low power binoculars. Otherwise you have to get up after every shot and walk to the chrono to read it.

You will also need a steady rest to shoot. Either a bench rest or if standing a tall pole or tripod to steady your pistol. My range has benches so I can shoot sitting with a bench rest. Otherwise, if you are not steady, you might "kill" the chrono, or hit a wire. I hit a wire once just barely bending it, so no harm done. A direct hit would cut the wire and need to be replaced.

Hope you get to use yours real soon.

Cheers,
og

Sorry we sidetracked the topic for a moment. Back to the .40/.357Sig discusion now.
 

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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
Gents,

I, too, have a Shooting Chrony and like it. That said, I have some results from earlier testing I can share in 9mm and .40 S & W.
9mm data is from my BHP and a G19. The .40 data is from my BHP and CZ-75B. BHP G19
9MM Winch Silvertip 115 Gr. 1,131 FPS/1,121 FPS
Fed 9BP 115 Gr. 1,190 FPS/1,180 FPS
CorBon 115 Gr. 1,392 FPS/1,359 FPS
Winch USA 124 Gr. 1,140 FPS/1,127 FPS
Pro-Load 124 Gr G.D. 1,171 FPS/1,143 FPS
Winch 127 Gr. +P+ (RA9TA) 1,265 FPS/1,276 FPS
Winch 147 Gr (RA9T) 994 FPS/1008 FPS

.40 S & W BHP CZ-75B
CorBon 135 Gr. 1,389 FPS/1,371 FPS
Winch 165 Gr. (RA40TA) 1,107 FPS/1,087 FPS
Fed Hydra-Shock 180 Gr. 975 FPS/958 FPS

There's a few comparisons for us to ponder. We'll have to wait on the .357 Sig data, but if we look at the better loads in each category we can see that the differences are not large.

Wes
 

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Howdy folks,

OG thanks again for all your help and your suggestions (tips my hat). They truly are appreciated sir.

Mr. Wes, thanks for the data. I just have to grin seeing that your HPs tend to consistently produce slighly higher readings too. There is simply an awful lot to appreciate with the HP platform.

I will test all the 40 rounds I can lay my hands on, and do the same for the 357 Sig loads too. I just checked my handgun ammo cabinet, and I have two Winchester loads, the Gold Dot, and a box of 125 gr Cor-Bons I had forgotten I had even purchased for the 357 Sig. So I will be able to shoot the Cor-Bon round too now.

I am hoping to be able to try the Chrony out next weekend. One of my deserts buds is very anxious to be able to test our carry loads, but can't arrange things for this weekend. He is trying to block off next weekend. But since he is also a LEO, blocking does not always work.
The last time we tried to go out and shoot, just after we drove though the gate off road, his cell phone went off calling him into work on the weekend. But hopefully very soon.

Of course Mr. Wes, Mr. OG, and Mr. Chris - any and all of you folks are invited to make an AZ vacation if the urge ever strikes you. We could sure make some noise why you were here too (tips my hat).

twoguns
 

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I have only scant experience with the .357 Sig but we did have a deputy who had a Glock 4.5" (is that a M32?).

I clocked Speer Lawman Ball (training ammo) and 125gr Gold Dot. Both were in the 1350 fps range. On another occasion we found Remington ball to hit around 1300 (125 gr).

Very limited test. More data required for a solid info.

Jim H.
 

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Mr. Jim,

Thank you sir. At least on the Gold Dot, that pretty much squares with what the factory customer service folks told me too. I know one of the Winchester training loads I have lists MV as about 1400 fps, but until now I had no way to verify it. Especially since the Gold Dot did feel a bit "stouter" to me than the Winchester did. I really am looking forward to breaking in my chronograph.

Speer said they loaded the Gold Dots to 1350 fps, keying more on the MV than on a specific powder charge. Given the differences in lots of powder they would be using, that made more sense too.

twoguns
 

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Twoguns;
That a Roger, factories do not load a specific powder charge from lot to lot. They do not use "off the shelf" powders much at all.

The first priority is "does it have pressure under the SAAMI Peak Pressure Limit and is the velocity reasonalbly close to what the other factories are getting.

From what I can see, "reasonably" close might surprize some of us. :-/

Other factors come into play but those are the first two.

Jim H.
 

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Discussion Starter · #28 ·
Gents,

Jim H., thanks for the input. Twoguns and all, as well.
We've discussed the round and as I noted earlier there are a lot of performance "cross overs". There are no "holy grail" handgun cartridges.
So, what is it that has agencies moving to the .357 SIG? Is there a specific performance protocal they are trying to meet, or do they just like the round?
I'm betting there is a penetration requirement that they are trying to meet with the pistol/round/bullet combination and the .357 SIG meets the requirement. Perhaps ability to penetrate car bodies, windshields, or somesuch and still perform on the other side?
Any of you guys with some insight please share. At this point It doesn't seem to offer much more than many of the exhisting self defense cartridges we use.
Think we've about flogged this to death and I'm still not sure we have any definitive answers.
Again, thanks for all your inputs.

Semper Fi,

Wes
 
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Probably it's because the cartridge emulates the legendary 125 gr. .357 Magnum load as the best stopper "on the street." (This load was the design target of the progenitors of the .357 Sig cartridge.)

When Evan Marshall and Massad Ayoob began publishing the observations from their studies of street shootings in the late 1970's and early 80's, the Federal 125 gr. JHP, was at the time, far-and-away the top one-shot stopper. Marshall's last published results (ca. 2001) list the same load as such (although exactly tied with a Remington 125 gr. JHP).
 

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again, I have to remind you to abide by the rules. Preface your comments with something like...."my opinion"...or such.
We are not here to jam anything down each other's throats.
Much of the community believes the Marshall work is just that, an opinion. If anyone wants to use it as the holy grail, that is their privilege.

As your moderator, that's my opinion.

og.....thanks for helping.
 

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Hello OG,

Thank's for the reminder and you are absolutely correct.

It is my opinion and based on my personal experience thus far with the SIG 239 and SIG 226, there is a lot to like based on the ballistics of the .357 SIG round.

I've not yet found a source of data on "street proven results", but the cartridge is still relatively young and not in widespread use by the LEO community to the degree the .40 S&W is based on my previous thread and poll.

Should anyone know of such a source of information, it would be appreciated.

Thank you,

Chris
 

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I admit, I dont pay as much attention to things as I might (a lot going on), but the only trend I have seen of late is for some agencies (mostly State Police) to move to the .45 GAP - which surprises me.

I could have missed it, but I dont recall seing any agency adopt the .357 Sig last year. Of course I dont get all the news from small departments.

It would be interesting to see the total breakout by calibers for the primary manufacturers.

Jim H.
 

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Hi Jim,

The following state LEO agencies use the .357 SIG:

Rhode Island State Police
Virginia State Police (replaced the 9mm in 1997)
Texas DPS/Texas Rangers Uniformed Division

There could be more, but this is what I have uncovered from recent inquiries here and around the web.

Chris
 

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Roger that guys. I knew states used it. I havent run across any outfit that has adopted it lately but I could have just missed it. Point being, there is no "trend"

NY and PA State Police adopted the .45 GAP within the last 12 months. I dont think that will develop into a trend either.

Our state police changed handguns about 2 years ago - they went with .40 S&W. Another large state agency also went with .40 (probably for the reason they can get it on "price contract") but chose the S&W M&P rather than the Glock of the other agency.

Jim H.

Jim H.
 

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There is something that floats around in the back of my mind and I am usually too busy to flesh it out. I think it is the idea that just because an agency adopts something it is the best for defensive use.

I find that a totally unwarranted assumption. There are many things that go into the choice of a duty cartridge. Its effectiveness is but one and usually the final decision makers base it on cost not effectiveness.

The vast majority of police officers in the U.S. were issued .38 spls for 70 years. The choice of the U.S Army for general issue is 9mm ball (just not for folks who are expected to actually fight with a handgun - for them it is .45).

Neither of those two cartridges have a stellar record when it comes to self defense (to be sure they have worked on occasion).

I am not leaving my life and death decision-making process up to some bureaucrat who is more interested in pinching pennies.

To be sure, some agencies happen to pick a good cartridge and gun...it seems to be more often a matter of luck than design.


Jim H.
 

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Discussion Starter · #37 ·
Gents,

After our discussions I'm not sure we are any closer to a real definitive answer concerning the .357 Sig cartridge. Other than it is a personal or departmental choice.
The round certainly looks good on paper. Besting the hottest 9mm loads buy a comfortable margin (in the best loadings), but at standard or +P pressures. From that aspect it beats the 9mm. The 9mm wins on ammo capacity.
So, we make our choices, live with them, and pray to god we never have to test them "in extremis".
My thanks to all who took the time to discuss the topic and add your valuable insights/experiences.
For my own edification I'm going to try an aftermarket barrel in .357 Sig and see if I can make up my own mind about the cartridge without the cost of an entire pistol.

Semper Fi,

Wes
 

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Mr. Wes,

Actually I think that is an excellent way to evaluate the cartridge. Since you are going to use it in a pistol you are already used to, the only real new thing is simply the cartridge. That will take one issue out of the equation for you.

Once you have had the chance to shoot it some, I am sure all of us would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the round. The issue we discussed in pms will be a done deal shortly too (tips my hat).

Later sir,

twoguns
 

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Hi there Wes,

I am in total agreement with your strategy of buying a barrel and fitting to an existing platform.

I might add in jest, Be Ware, I did the same with my Glock 23 and wound up buying two SIGs.
chambered in .357 SIG!

Chris
 
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