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Mr. Wes,

Howdy again sir. Thanks for posting this one, as I too look forward to seeing what other members will say.

Let me start off by saying I too largely prefer shooting a larger chunk of lead downrange whenever possible. I also hold the .357 magnum in very high regard, as I carried several in my early days in law enforcement. I started off with a model 28, then switched to a model 19. Later on I added a model 19 2.5, a 3" model 65, and a model 66 4". But most of those were added after the fact for me.

Shortly after writing my department's first firearms policy, I replaced my model 19 with a model 57, .41 magnum. My first Chief authorized it for duty use for me, after showing him I was able to qualify effectively with it. I carried it as my primary handgun until Chief number 5 walked throught the door and declared my caliber was an "excessive force law suit" waiting to be filed. He killed my authorized use of the .41 magnum, but oddly did not object when I began carrying a .45acp as its replacement. At the time our issued weapon was a model 65, that he required be loaded with .38 specials, as the first 6 rounds fired. Magnums could be used as reloads, but not as primary carry rounds. He did hold inspections to insure officers were not loaded with .357 magnums.

I guess a part of the "old cop" in me has always been intrigued by pistol rounds that are said to equate to what I have viewed as "trusty, tried and true" revolver calibers. These pistols also offer faster reloads and higher round capacity as well. So to me, I see them as sort of "new and improved" options.

When the 10mm was introduced, I was the "first kid on my block" to buy one. I started with a Colt Delta Elite, and then added a Smith 1006 as my tactical vest gun to supplement the Colt. When my agency killed SA pistols, I began to use the 1006 as my primary pistol. When I tried to find another one to go in my vest, I could not readily locate one, and settled instead for a 4506. They were essentially the same pistol, with the same controls, and I had no problem carrying a .45acp as my vest gun.

When the 40 S&W was introduced, it was reputed to be a shorted piece of 10mm brass, loaded at reduced levels, and capable of being fired in double row mags from a 9mm frame pistol. Many law enforcement agencies began to see it as a better option to the 9mm and began to make the transtition.

I personally had no problem with the 10mm round. So in my "old cop" mind I saw them as basically being: 10mm = .357 mag, and 40 S&W = .38 special, if you follow my logic there.

Eventually I decided bigger was better and bought a Smith 4006, that I quickly replaced with a Sig P226 in 40. Then I added another 226 in 40 as my tactical vest pistol. But to be honest, a part of the "old cop" in me kept saying, why are you basically carrying the .38 special (40 S&W) when you should be using the .357 mag (10mm).

When the 357 Sig was released, and was said to equate ballistically to the .357 mag 125 gr JHP when fired from a 4" barrel revolver, it naturally attracted my attention too. I began to read any articles I could find on it. Most praised what the round had to offer, but some did complain about excessive recoil and muzzle flash. But I kept reading and kept debating it.

I have a couple of friends who work for the US Secret Service. When they told me they had converted to the 357 Sig (hereafter called the Sig), it made a big impression on me. I have always held USSS in high respect as a very professional agency. About the same time, I read that Texas DPS had converted over to the Sig too. Again that made a real impression on me, as I also hold them in high esteem.

In late September 2001, along with a ton of other federal agents from mulitple agencies, I was loaned to the FAA to serve as an Air Marshal, while they recrutied, hired and trained new Air Marshals. Their issued pistol at that point in time was the Sig P228 in 9mm. Those of us on loan simply carried our agency issued handgun with its duty round.

In December 2002, I was re-activated as an Air Marshal, and sent to refresher training, before resuming flight duties. The instructors told us they had recently converted to the Sig P229 in Sig, issuing the Speer 125 gr Gold Dot round. They were very impressed with both the pistol and the round. So another plus for the caliber to me.

After being released to return to my agency, we began to once again allow personally owned pistols with certain illogical restrictions attached. I could carry a P229 in 40 S&W, but not a 226 in the same caliber.

I have a close friend who happens to own "my gun store" too. He is someone else who has "been there and done that" in his earlier days. We both had great respect for each other first, and then formed a natural customer-gun store owner relationship as well. It is a rare weapon I do not purchase from Gary now.

I called him and asked him to order me a Sig 229 in 40 S&W. When it came in I drove to his store to pick it up. He suffers from a very severe case of arthritis now. Most folks who see his hands would naturally assume he can not shot a handgun with them. In reality he remains both an active shooter and an amazing shot.

As my friend, he was aware that some existing medical issues were beginning to worsen over time for me. I had already told him my goal was simply to reach retirement age and bail, rather than staying 2 additional years to increase my retirement payments. Because of my medical issues, I had bascially decided the recoil of the Sig might be a bit much for me now.

While buying the 229, Gary suggested I buy a Sig barrel for it too, telling me he felt the Sig offered him much less felt recoil than the 40 S&W did. I could not stop grinning when someone I trusted said that. I left his store that day with the 229, both barrels, and some Winchester 125 gr TMC and JHP rounds as those were all he had in stock that day.

Our issued 40 S&W round at the time was the Winchester Ranger 165 gr SXT. So that was the round I had to compare the Sig against when shooting both barrels with friends. Much to my pleasant surprise, I felt much less "felt recoil" with the hotter Sig rounds than with the 40 SXT loads. All of my friends who have compared both calibers have agreed they too feel the Sig offers less felt recoil and muzzle climb for them as well.

I do reload which allows me to shoot much more often than if I was having to purchase every round going downrange. Our current issued round for the 40 S&W is the 165gr Gold Dot, and my personal choice for the Sig is the Speer 125 gr Gold Dot. I have never tried any Cor-Bon load of any flavor, but admit you have gotten my interest up a bit in them.

But when practicing now, I will often swap out barrels in my 229, steel framed 226R, and FN HP, to fire both the 40 S&W and the Sig rounds. I do still shoot the 40 well and my groups for now remain tight with it. But honestly, when using the Sig rounds, my groups are both a bit tighter, and can be fired at a slightly faster pace too. Both of those are advantages to me on a personal level.

I have also noted that I can fire 2 or 3 times the number of Sig loads than I can a 40 before my body starts to say - ok you are just wasting ammo now, stop shooting. As I fully believe anyone who chooses to carry a weapon either for self-defense or duty use, should shoot it both well and often, I naturally lean towards the Sig now over the 40.

So admittedly the largest part of my preference for the Sig over the 40 is simply personal. I feel I shoot it better so it is the more logical choice for me. But the bottom line, isn't that really how and why most of us select both our handgun, caliber and loads. We choose what we feel works best for us.

I readily accept my next comment will clearly fall out of "scientific" terms. But please recall the caliber comparisons I made earlier. As I said I have no exposure to the Cor-bon loads, but I have always sort of seen them as "exotic" loads, if you follow me now. I just don't normally include them into what I would normally mean when I use the phrase "most commercial loadings" in discussing ammo in general. So for purpsoses of this non-scientific comment, please allow me to exlude the Cor-Bon and others of its type in consideration.

Another part of the reason I like the Sig over the 40 is more along the lines of what I call a "gut reaction". The "old cop" in me keeps whispering - which would you rather carry to protect yourself with - the .357 mag (357 Sig) or the .38 special (40 S&W). The "old cop" side of me has been doing a fair job of looking out for me over the years. So it is hard for me to ignore him when he whispers to me now.

Mr. Wes, these are just my personal thoughts, but they work well for me. But again sir, I thank you for posting this question. I really do look forward to seeing what other members have to say in response.

twoguns
 

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Howdy folks,

First off joe4d, it is obvious to me that I stepped on your toes with my comparison comment, which was truly intended as a private joke with Mr. Wes. In hindsight I probably should have made the comment in a pm, rather that in an open post. So I apologize if I offended you with the comparison comment.

It is obvious to me you are a fan of the 40S&W, and it may surprise you to learn that I am as well. I currently own 4 pistols that are chambered or will accept barrels to fire the 40S&W. I have carried this caliber on duty, and willingly trusted my life to it for several years.

I also agree with you totally that shot placement is more crucial to me than is the caliber used, at least when speaking in terms of .38spc/9mm and above. I am not trying to step on anyone's toes who likes the .380acp or other smaller calibers. All I am doing is expressing my personal opinion that I feel adequately armed with calibers above those.

I also feel firearms are very much like buying vehicles to a large degree. Just as I think folks should purchase whatever vehicle that suits their needs best, I think the same holds equally true with both brands, models, and calibers of firearms.

I absolutely do not consider myself an "expert" at all. I am just someone who enjoys shooting firearms, reloading, and discussing gun related topics. My thoughts are largely based on my personal experiences as an avid shooter, LEO, police firearms instructor, police armorer, and reloader for the past 35 years. Based on my experiences I hold certain opinions, just as everyone else holds their own based on their own experiences.

But again I am simply stating my personal opinion in regards to this topic, and others are certainly entitled to agree or disagree as they see fit.

It is not that I dislike the 40S&W or do not trust it. If that was the case, I would certainly not own 4 pistols that fire it. But once I began to research the 357 Sig round it did seem to hold some strong points to me. I purchased one pistol in 40 S&W along with the 357 Sig barrel. Once I began to shoot various loads in 357 Sig, I was very pleased with how well the caliber and I got along.

As I noted earlier in a post, I have developed some medical issues that can making shooting larger calibers painful at times, and shorten my range time as a result. One of the advantages I discovered is that shooting the 357 Sig in comparison to the 40 S&W rounds I had to compare them to, I felt the 357 Sig had less felt recoil and not more than the 40 did to me.

Joe4d I am absolutely not trying to argue with you or anyone else over the merits of these two calibers. I suspect if anything close to a heated debate arises, this thread will get locked again. I would hate to see that happen, as I think many of our members as well as Mr. Wes might find the discussion his question produces to be interesting to them.

But I would like to trying to respond to some of your previous comments with "logic" this time, rather than poorly made jokes which could offend you sir. But to explain my comparison briefly, which will in part respond to some of your comments offered, let me put it this way.

As Mr. Stephens noted in his post, he gave some ballistics information that were obtained from ammo websites. To quote Mr. Chris: "here are some comparisons from Federal and Speer's web sites:
In the Federal Load, product # PD40S4H 135 grain Premium Defense Load we have a 135 grain bullet leaving the muzzle at an average of 1200 ft/sec with muzzle energy hovering around 432 foot/pounds. That's a very decent showing for .40 S&W round.
On the other hand, we have the Speer Personal Protection Gold Dot stock # 23918 round shooting a 125 grain bullet at a very respectable 1375 fps and boasting 535 foot/pounds in muzzle energy. The 155 grain load in .40 S&W is equal to the Federal Load."

I then took a look in one of my reloading manuals, as one of your comments suggested should be done. Unfortunately the two calibers do not offer loading with comparable bullet weights that are equal. Using the Accurate Arms manual, as this is the powder I use for both my 40S&W and 357 Sig loads, I did find a 40 125 gr frangible load, but to me that is apples to oranges, as the only viable comparison would be to use JHPs in both. The lightest projectile listed for the 40 is a 135 gr JHP, which using no 7 powder and start and max charges lists MVs of 1089fps and 1237 fps (fired from a 4" HS Precision).

The standard bullet weight for the 357 Sig is usually a 125 gr JHP (if we try to keep apples and apples), but since it will utilize a 9mm projectile as well as a .38 Super, Accurate lists a 124 gr JHP. Again using no 7 to keep things as equal as possible here, the same MVs are listed as 1161fps and 1320fps (again fired from a 4" HS Precision). Just a note, I use no 9 in this load, as that is what the manual suggest as the best suited powder, and my reloading experience to date has agreed. Using no 9 you obtain MVs of 1220fps and 1387fps. There is no 135 gr 40 load listed using no 9 to compare it to, sorry.

I readily admit that the differences Mr. Chris cited from ammo sites and what the Accurate Arms manual reflects are not tremendous ones, certainly not day and night. But the fact remains to me at least, that the 357 Sig does propel a 124/125 gr JHP projectile at higher MVs than does the 40 using a 135 gr JHP projectile. Again these were the two closest weights I could find.

Mr. Wes and I had previously discussed the 357 Sig a bit in offline pms. Again, just to explain the intent of the comparison I made that obviously offended you sir (sorry again), the .357 mag does propel the same weight bullet at higher velocities than does the .38 spc, and the magnum does so with a slightly longer case. If you will check a reloading reference, you will see that the .357 Sig case is slightly longer than is the 40S&W case. Both its longer case and higher MV were the basis of my comparison/joke to Wes that he understood. But again if I offended you buy making that comment, I do sincerely apologize.

You felt "... there is absolutely no advantage to .357 sig over the .40 it is just a funny looking .40 with a hard to reload case." While I do agree the differences between the two factory loads and reloads discussed are not night and day, to me the .357 Sig offers me a slight edge. The fact that I feel the felt recoil is reduced with a 357 Sig compared to what I experience with a 40 S&W JHP load (I shoot Gold Dot HPs in both calibers), allows me to shoot the 357 Sig with a bit tighter group at a bit faster pace. Those advantages do matter to me, especially given my medical issues which can make shooting difficult at times.

You also noted "... I would feel adequately armed with either if the .357 Sig was reliable." Joe4d I do not hold myself out as a gunsmith, but I have had good luck in keeping our issued weapons running to factory specs for the last 35 years. If you want to tell me the reliability issue you are experiencing in your 357 Sig pistol, perhaps I can offers some suggestions that will bring it back to total reliablity for you. Or at the very least suggest some issues for a competent gunsmith to address for you sir.

You also expressed your personal opinion in part, "The fact LEO is using it is irrelevant in my book too many factors other than effectiveness go into LEO guns and ammo..." adding several other thoughts to support your statement. You are certainly entitled to believe whatever you wish regarding LEOs and weapon/caliber selection processes. I have risked my life in part for the past 35 years so that you and everyone else is free to express their personal opinions without fear in this great country. (Of course short of speech which violates local, state and federal statutes.)

But that being said, I hope you will agree that I am also entitled to express mine. I do not wish to make my comments personal in the least, or offend you any further than I apparently did early on sir. So I will simply say I have been involved in many different evaluation processes over the course of my career. I also from personal experience hold the USSS, FAA Air Marshals and Texas DPS in very high regard, and simply do not feel they did anything less that attempt to select the best weapon and caliber they could find to arm their personnel with. So on that one, please just let me say, let's just agree to disagree on how the caliber came to be selected by various LEAs (tips my hat).

You then noted your belief, "I my mind most of the .357 Sig hype is because of the increase recoil and muzzle blast compared to a similar weight .40 round giving the impression of more power when it is simply not there." Unless I misread comments offered by folks here who stated they had fired both calibers, everyone was in agreement that they all felt less felt recoil when shooting the 357 Sig than they did with the 40S&W.

My best suggestion to your sir, is if your 357 Sig loads you are using right now give you both more felt recoil and muzzle blast than your 40S&W rounds do, I would seriously suggest you stop shooting them until you can resolve that. It is possible that your 357 Sig rounds are just "not right" somehow if they cause you to feel more instead of less felt recoil than your 40 does.

You mentioned the 40 was simplier to reload than the 357 Sig. To be honest, for me that has simply not be an issue in the least. I have not had the first problem while reloading the 357 Sig. Again if you are experiencing problems loading your rounds, please feel free to pm if you would like. I will be happy to offer some suggestions or tricks that might help to solve that issue for you as well Joe4d.

Please do not feel I am trying to argue with you at all, as I assure you I am not. As I said early on if the comments turn into a "heated debate" I fear this thread will simply be locked and I would hate that personally. I simply wanted to try to respond to some of your comments, and perhaps show you some other factors to consider.

It is certainly not my goal to turn you into a 357 Sig fan. You obviously are very happy with your 40S&W and it works well for you. I can understand and appreciate that feeling totally. I guess that is the point I am making for myself here.

As I noted earlier, I own 4 pistols capable of firing 40S&W rounds. Three of those 4 are also capable of firing the 357 Sig round. When Bar-Sto delivers my barrel, then it will be 4 for 4 at that point. For me, for a variety of reasons, the 357 Sig simply works better for me, and offers some advantages - largely reduced felt recoil and very tight groups.

To quote from the Accurate Arms manual regarding the 357 Sig caliber: "This is without a doubt the most ballistically consistent handgun cartridge we have ever worked with. The standard deviation for every single load developed was less than 10 FPS. The average SD was 5 FPS. This is impressive for any cartridge but especially so for a handgun. The small bottleneck and high working pressure of the round must both contribute to this amazing consistency."

Just an added note, the manual lists the SAAMI max as 40,000 PSI for the 357 Sig, and 35,000 PSI for the 40S&W.

But again the bottom line for me is that shot placement is the most important issue to me in surviving an armed encounter. Everyone should chose the brand, make, and caliber they feel the most confident with, and practice with it often using their carry round during training. For me that favored caliber just happens to be the 357 Sig. I am only trying to express my thoughts and personal experiences with the caliber, and explain why it works for me. If it does not work for someone else, I understand, and would simply smile and say stay with what works best for you.

Again Joe4d, I did not mean to offend you with my comparison in the earlier post. I am serious sir, if I can do anything to help you get your 357 Sig running reliably for you, or help you with any reloading issues you may be experiencing - I will gladly do so. To me as shooters, if we do not look out for each other, then shame on us.

Again just my thoughts. I know some folks will not agree, and that is fine.

But just a personal request to all members - please let's try our best to keep our comments calm and professional when posting. I have seen some great threads end up having to be killed in the past because some folks got a bit carried away in expressing themselves. To me when that happens everyone suffers because of it. Again just my thoughts and my personal request to all members who read this.

Shoot often and shoot well - it is your life afterall.

twoguns
 

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Mr. Wes,

Well sir, I think it is entirely up to you....

but sure seems like Wes would be much easier to type too. But I sure do like to see that two mags, so thank you sir for being willing to humor an old fart (tips my hat).


I could be wrong but I seem to recall one of our members saying recently that I think the Ohio State Police had made the switch too. But since I could not recall it clearly, I simply did not add it. I will look and see if I can find it again soon.

If you do find out about the Oregon State Police, please let us know. I honestly do think it is a viable round with a lot of positive points to offer to LEOs. But as you sagely noted, that exact same statement can be made just as readily regarding several other fine calibers too.

Shoot well and shoot often - whatever flavor your prefer ;)

twoguns
 

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Howdy folks,

Well the good news is I had finally broken down and ordered my first ever chronograph, and it arrived today. I am looking forward to the new dimension it will add to both my shooting sessions and load developments in all my calibers.

The only bad news is I don't know when I will be able to shoot with it the first time now. My indoor range does not allow them, so that means a trip out into the desert. I don't go shooting in the desert alone. So I will have to wait until one of the two folks I feel comfortable going desert shooting with can coordinate it with me.

But at some point, assuming I don't kill my chronograph in short order ::)
, I will be able to give some realistic data to add to this topic.

I figured at the least I will test the following loads:
357 Sig 125gr GDHP
357 Sig 125 gr JHP reloads
40 S&W 165 GDHP
40 S&W 165 JHP reloads
If I can find any lighter 40 S&W rounds in my ammo cabinet I will shoot them too. I used to have some 155 gr GDHPs, but I may have shot them all. I will see what other lighter loads I can find to try to make it as close and fair as I can.

If anyone can think of other rounds they would like tested also, if I have them I will gladly do so. Just post them here or send me a pm, whichever you prefer. I do have a fairly decent inventory of assorted factory loads in various calibers. Although at least for this thread I would rather not hijack it and get it too far off subject from the responses Mr. Wes asked for. So Mr. Wes, I will sort of leave any other calibers fired for comparative data up to you sir (tips my hat). If you have other rounds you would like these two calibers compared to, let me know. If I can accommodate you I will sir.

Shoot well and shoot often,

twoguns
 

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OG,

As usualy sir, I thank you for your suggestions. I ended up following your advice. I ended up getting the B Master, because I liked that it would save my data when I turned it off. I also debated it and decided that the remote could turn into a real plus for me down the road if my situation just continues to worsen over time.

I went on the Midway site after getting your suggestions (again thank you sir) and the praise for this brand was basically universal.

I also appreciate your suggestions too, as this well certainly be "new territory" for me as well. I could just as easily send you a pm, but I think others who might be debating buying a chornograph might benefit from your experience with one too sir.

When you say "screens" are you referring to the white plastic like parts that came with mine - that fit on top of the rods. Or are you talking about some type of add on accessory? Given my location, I am blessed with far more "severe clear sunny" days than I am cloudy days. All my work with mine will be outside directly under the sunlight.

Again Mr. OG, thanks for your original suggestion and your tips here. I really do look forward to adding this new element to my shooting sessions (tips my hat).

twoguns
 

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Howdy folks,

OG thanks again for all your help and your suggestions (tips my hat). They truly are appreciated sir.

Mr. Wes, thanks for the data. I just have to grin seeing that your HPs tend to consistently produce slighly higher readings too. There is simply an awful lot to appreciate with the HP platform.

I will test all the 40 rounds I can lay my hands on, and do the same for the 357 Sig loads too. I just checked my handgun ammo cabinet, and I have two Winchester loads, the Gold Dot, and a box of 125 gr Cor-Bons I had forgotten I had even purchased for the 357 Sig. So I will be able to shoot the Cor-Bon round too now.

I am hoping to be able to try the Chrony out next weekend. One of my deserts buds is very anxious to be able to test our carry loads, but can't arrange things for this weekend. He is trying to block off next weekend. But since he is also a LEO, blocking does not always work.
The last time we tried to go out and shoot, just after we drove though the gate off road, his cell phone went off calling him into work on the weekend. But hopefully very soon.

Of course Mr. Wes, Mr. OG, and Mr. Chris - any and all of you folks are invited to make an AZ vacation if the urge ever strikes you. We could sure make some noise why you were here too (tips my hat).

twoguns
 

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Mr. Jim,

Thank you sir. At least on the Gold Dot, that pretty much squares with what the factory customer service folks told me too. I know one of the Winchester training loads I have lists MV as about 1400 fps, but until now I had no way to verify it. Especially since the Gold Dot did feel a bit "stouter" to me than the Winchester did. I really am looking forward to breaking in my chronograph.

Speer said they loaded the Gold Dots to 1350 fps, keying more on the MV than on a specific powder charge. Given the differences in lots of powder they would be using, that made more sense too.

twoguns
 

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Mr. Wes,

Actually I think that is an excellent way to evaluate the cartridge. Since you are going to use it in a pistol you are already used to, the only real new thing is simply the cartridge. That will take one issue out of the equation for you.

Once you have had the chance to shoot it some, I am sure all of us would be interested in hearing your thoughts on the round. The issue we discussed in pms will be a done deal shortly too (tips my hat).

Later sir,

twoguns
 

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Mr. OG,

Yes sir I certainly do, and I intend to post them as soon as possible (tips my hat).

Unfortunately my desert shooting buddy stopped by this morning on his way to work, and said he had to work this weekend on a new 7x24 surveillance. So now it looks like next weekend, maybe.

twoguns
 

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Howdy folks,

Well the good news my buddy and I made it out to shoot today, and neither one of us managed to kill the chronograph the first time out. The bad news I left most my 357 Sig reloads along with my FN HP 40 in a bag sitting in the apartment, and only realized it when we were setting things up. So the only data I will provide for now are various factory loads fired in my Sig P229 (3.9" barrel) and Sig P226 (4.4" barrel). I checked and confirmed that a Sig P239 has a 3.6" barrel, so those of you with that pistol will have to do the math, it is beyond me, sorry. I think there was operator error when I got home with my unit, so I can only provide average mv for 5 shot groups, and extreme spread of those 5 shots. (Fortunately I wrote the mv down for each shot, or I would be one unhappy idiot operator now too, lol.)

Note: I edited this data to include 40 S&W loads fired from my Kahr K40 (3.5" barrel). I went back to look at the Kahr site and they state this barrel has polygonal rifling, so it may not prove to be a valid comparison tool for something akin to a P239 (3.6" barrel). But since I fired these same rounds in a third pistol, I decided to add that data too.

Because of the polygonal rifling, this may be a bit deceptive too for comparison purposes. I noted the Kahr out performed the longer P229 barrel (3.5 v 3.9) and even beat the P226 barrel (3.5 v 4.4) on one round. But I found the results interesting and decided I would include the data.

I will have to admit the "little fella" did seem to hold his own with the "big boys". But he did prove to be a handful at times too, lol.
But in a real world situation, I doubt if I would have noticed the increased felt recoil either.

[Edited on 03-14-07 to include the stock numbers of various loads fired.]

40 S&W loads:

Rem 155 JHP [R40SW1]
K40 avg 1212.8, es 12
229 avg 1179.8, es 33
226 avg 1222.0, es 30

Win 155 JHP [RA40155HP]
K40 avg 1219.4, es 34
229 avg 1203.8, es 50
226 avg 1221.8, es 17

Fed 155 JHP [XM40SWB]
K40 avg 1195.0, es 41
229 avg 1185.4, es 35
226 avg 1223.8, es 32

Spr 155 GDHP [53961]
K40 avg 1205.8, es 36
229 avg 1182.6, es 27
226 avg 1242.2, es 12

Spr 165 GDHP [23970]
K40 avg 1157.2, es 23
229 avg 1145.2, es 17
226 avg 1173.8, es 25

Fed 180 HS [P40HS1G]
K40 avg 1015.6, es 17
229 avg 985.3, es 26
226 avg 1010.2, es 17


357 Sig loads:

Win 125 FMJ [Q4309]
229 avg 1346.8, es 10
226 avg 1387.4, es 32

Win 125 JHP [USA357SJHP]
229 avg 1384.0, es 31
226 avg 1394.6, es 28

Cor-Bon 125 JHP [SD357SIG125]
229 avg 1382.4, es 29
226 avg 1421.0, es 55

Spr 125 GDHP [23918]
229 avg 1402.2, es 16
226 avg 1441.2, es 17

During our next session I will try to shoot some 357 Sig reloads and post those results along with some limited 40 S&W reloads I shot today. But I decided just to keep the first data all factory loads for a more logical comparison.

I can tell already my chronograph will be going out in the desert with us on each outing now. It does add a new element to things. Next time I will try to remember to bring my FN HP40 and fire it with both the 40 and 357 factory loads as well. But given my buddy's work life, and the govt cell my office was "kind enough" to give him, weekends are rarely his own now too, lol.

Hope folks find this interesting. I was a bit surprised at some of these results. It will be interesting to see if they basically repeat closely on our next outing now.

Shoot well and shoot often,

twoguns
 

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Mr. OG,

Yes sir, as it was my first attempted use, and we were out in the desert under what later became a fairly hot sun, I decided to use the plastic screens. I wanted to control as many factors as I could, especially in my first effort, to maximize the results.

But again sir, I do thank you for your excellent suggestion of the brand to purchase. It reminds me of my reaction to my first set of nightsights - why did I wait so long to get this.

Btw, I also shot the 40 S&W loads out of a Kahr K40, and will probably modify my original post to add a different barrel lenght in for comparison purposes. My buddy also shot an assorted of .380 acp rounds he had through his Walther PPK/S yesterday, I will post separately in case it will help the .380 acp fans.

Again Mr. OG, my hat is off to you sir for your help in my choosing what appears to be an excellent chronograph, and more than worth the money spent (tips my hat).

twoguns
 

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Howdy folks,

I modified my previous post listing chronograph results, by adding data fired in my Kahr K40, with a 3.5" barrel. Initially I expected it might serve as a valid comparison for the P239 pistol with its 3.6" barrel.

However, since the Kahr barrel has polygonal rifling, I am not sure this is a valide comparison for that barrel length. It did out-perform all loads fired in the longer P229 (3.5 v 3.9) and even bet the P226 in one load (3.5 v 4.4).

But since I had the data I decided to include it in that post.

I have to admit, the "little fella" did impress me, and made me happy it rides in my boot with me as my back up pistol. Now if I could only find a company that would make me a K40 barrel chambered for 357 Sig. I think that would be an amazing package to shoot and carry.

I did notice the Kahr was causing about half of the brass to eject with some signigifcant dents in the cases mouths. So I may have to relegate my oldest brass for use in the Kahr now too. Years ago I owned an H&K P9S pistol in 9mm, and I seem to recall now it was doing the same with its brass. I know both have polygonal rifling, so I am making a logical, but perhaps invalid conclusion here. But I thought it was worth mentioning too.

twoguns
 

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Mr. OG,

I had my chronograph set up 8 feet from the pistol muzzles.

My target was probably 10 yards away. I knew some of my loads might be subsonic, expecially some .380acp rounds my buddy wanted to shoot. So we chose 8 feet to eliminate potential error messages on the subsonic loads. We had maybe 5 error messages the entire day of shooting.

Since you raised the point, what distance do you think is best for handguns and rifles in your experience?

Thanks again. I am still learning this new equipment, so all suggestions are welcome.

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Mr. OG and others,

Thanks for your tips on the chrony, it is new ground to me, and all suggestions are appreciated. I will probably set up at 10' next time. I had an issue with my tripod, and had to use cardboard boxes, which actually worked much better than we had hoped. So once we had things set up, I was hesitant to move it in case I cursed us, lol. Next time I will set it up at 10' and see how that works for me. By then I should have the tripod issue worked out as well.

I was a bit surprised to see my Gold Dots were faster than the Cor-Bons as I did not expect that at all. It is hard to tell how long ammo has been sitting on a dealer's shelf, but Gary sells a lot of ammo, so I doubt if the Cor-Bons were very old at all. The Gold Dots I purchased from him within a month of the Cor-Bons. As I said before, it will be interesting to see if this data appears to hold true over time.

Mr. OG, when my buddy showed up with his Walther PPK/S and assorted boxes of ammo, I sort of grinned. I was thinking you might enjoy that data. I will gladly post it for you and others sir. I had given his a partial box of Super Vel JHPs I had purchased about 30 years ago, when I carried a PPK/S working undercover narcotics. We both were amazed at how they clocked 30 years later.

I have to admit the performance I obtained from the Kahr K40 makes me feel a bit more comfortable knowing it is my backup now. The down side is it tends to be a bit brutal on brass as well, so I will have to save my older 40 brass to shoot in the K40.

Mr. OG, I will work up the data on the .380acp rounds and post them shortly.

Thanks again for your suggestions sir.

Mr. Wes,

Keep us in the loop on how things go for you with the 357 Sig. If I can help at all with reloading tips for it, please do not be bashful. Also the post Mr. Chris made recently in reloading the 357 Sig would be worth reading by anyone who is going to load the round. (Hopefully Mr. OG will not mind my plugging my room like that in his, lol).

twoguns
 

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Mr. Wes,

I am glad to hear you did not find your test a total waste of your time sir. I do understand the problems caused by lack of reloading components or factory ammo locally. That is certainly something to consider. But as you noted, these are not insurmountable problems either. I pick my chosen carry round, in the 357 Sig it is the 125gr Gold Dot. Then I find reloading components that will allow me to closely duplicate my carry load.

As I don't find an abundance of reloading components at reasonble prices locally, that means I simply order most of mine from vendors I deal with often. Then I just wait for them to show up so I can load my rounds. That allows me to practice much more, and at the same time use a round that is as close as possible to my chosen carry load.

I do like a nice large chunk of lead going downrange. I always have and always will. But given my medical situation, I have found I have had to make many choices I might not have made 20 or even 10 years ago now. I do shoot the 357 Sig rounds better than I do a good 40S&W carry load - better in terms of tighter groups, faster recovery time back to target, and less felt recoil for me.

So to me it is simply a better choice. Is it "the" magic bullet, no sir. I am not really sure such a creature exists - or I would be carrying it and singing its praises. But for me it provides a great deal in a round I want to trust my life to, so while not "the" magic round, it comes pretty darn close for me. I reckon it will do me well, at least until I find something better - if I do.

I do find it curious that you had 2 FTF with the 40 but none with the 357 Sig. Although you did only have 100 rounds to play with. I have been lucky with my FN 40, I have yet to have the first malfunction of any type in either 40 or 357 Sig. Hopefully it will stay that way.

If you have the chance to do some reloading with the caliber, please share your thoughts on that with us too.

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Mr. Wes,

Sorry on the tax time, I truly think most of us understand exactly what you mean on that one too, lol. But I feel reasonably sure that Sig will still be up and running when you are ready to give in to "Sigitis" ;) .

I am glad to hear you ended up being impressed enough to decide to order a barrel. As you have time, please keep sharing your thoughts on shooting these calibers. I still need to get back out in the desert with my shooting buddy and do some more chorongraphing with more of my reloads. Eventually I will be shooting more reloads using the Speer 125 GD, and some 125 JHP Zero loads.

Unfortunately, the delivery within 4 weeks from point of order with Bar-Sto has already proven to be far too optimistic, by about a second 4 week period now. But I am looking forward to receiving that barrel as well, so I can try the 357 Sig out in my 75B 40. I am holding high hopes on that combination, and hope I will not be disappointed. But only time and Bar-Sto will tell on that one, lol.

But I will continue to post chronograph data comparing the 40 and 357 in various platforms, as I have the opportunity to obtain more data.

Shoot well and shoot often.

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Mr. David,

(Not Wes yet, lol) but thanks for the link. I realize they are loading the ammo, but their prices do not look bad either.

Since you used their 38 Super loads when available, I am just curious. Did you ever compare their GD with a factory GD to see if they appeared to be close. If not, no biggie really. But I am curious to hear your thoughts on how consistent and accurate you felt their 38 Supers were for you.

Thanks in advance,

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Mr. Pat,

Thanks for you feedback on both their round and the pricing suggestion. If I run out of brass and need a fresh supply I will take a long look at their offerings. But I think it is always a good thing when our members can offering real world feed back on vendors.

twoguns
 
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