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I see.

Well, I've been wavering between a .45 and a 10mm, lately. Admittedly, I think the .45 probably has a slight edge on the 10mm in "stopping power," but the 10mm generally offers more rounds in a platform of similar size.

Right now, the battle seems to be between a Springfield XD45, and a 10mm 1911. A lot of people would insist that your first 1911 should be a .45, but I just see the 1911 government and the 10mm cartridge as a match made in heaven.
Chub, you need to check out the Dan Wesson guns (if you haven't already). They make their basic 1911 model and their Commander Bob-tail in a 10mm and they have recently reintroduced the Razorback due to popular demand.

http://www.cz-usa.com/01.09.php

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=52

SpecialEd ;)
 
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Discussion Starter · #22 ·
Wow, that little commander is slick. It looks like the XD won out, for the time being, though. I'm in college, if you'll remember, and my local place put all their XDs, including the new .45 ACP models, on sale for just $500.

When you're on a tight budget, and you're given a chance to obtain a brand new gun, two magazines, a decent range holster, a double mag carrier, and a magazine loader for that amount of money, things like the old "plastic vs. steel" debate kind of go out the window.
 
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Discussion Starter · #23 ·
If you feel THAT way, look into the Glock Model 29 (in 10mm, of course). That model is an EXCELLENT way to shoot the 10mm, keep it "compact" and have the vaunted reliability of the Glock.

What more could you want?

Scott
 
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Discussion Starter · #24 ·
If push came to shove I would go with the 10mm as you can do more things with it, I love my Glock 21 with 10mm KKM barrel. I also have to admit that I am enamoured with 357 Sigs. I have an off brand 357 Sig barrel for my Glock 27 and the flame, noise, and recoil are a blast! These are two great calibers that deserve bigger followings. Regards, Richard
 
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Discussion Starter · #25 ·
The .357 Sig is simply a .38 Super in a short, fat package. (That seems to be the trend these days.) I prefer the 10mm because the .357 Sig simply does not have the versatility if the larger, more powerful cartridge.

Good shootin'

Scott
 

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Voted for the 10mm myself..I like the .357 Sig but it is rough on the 9mm size envelope they make it in. The 10mm is the most versatile of the two. As far as nobody making 10mm's...EAA makes a Witness in 10mm, Glock has two models available, the 20 and the 29, and then you have all the 1911s available or easily converted to it.
 
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Discussion Starter · #29 ·
Terry, neither a .38 Super or .45 ACP can match the 10mm in sheer power. Southern Michigan whitetail deer are corn fed and huge; I would opt for neither of your choices for hunting them but I would use a 10mm to hunt whitetail deer. Regards, Richard
 

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Friend of mine dumped two whitetails with his G20, using the Ga Arms 155gr Gold Dot. Blew a big hole on entry, and yet exited on broadside shots at about 50 yards. Neither went very far.

Anyone shot any deer with the SIG round?


Regards,

Pat
 

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Friend of mine dumped two whitetails with his G20, using the Ga Arms 155gr Gold Dot. Blew a big hole on entry, and yet exited on broadside shots at about 50 yards. Neither went very far.

Anyone shot any deer with the SIG round?


Regards,

Pat

No but I have shot a medium sized buck and a smallish pig with a 9X23 which somewhat surpases the .357 Sig round (should be very similar though the pig was shot with a 125 Gold Dot at 1600 fps).

Both resulted in dead critters but not instant stops, the pig was a bit underwelming actually - resembled shooting something with a good .38 Spl load. Both bullets expanded but not in the classic mushroom as both hit bone. Both penetrated about 9-10"

I don't need to remind anyone that 2 cases does not a study make :)

Jim H.
 

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I voted for the 357 Sig, but to be honest it was a really hard vote for me, as I love both calibers.

As a homicide detective I carried a personally owned S&W model 57, until my last Chief walked through the door and had a heart attack over what he termed an "excessive force issue waiting to happen". So of course, no more .41 magnum. Oddly even though our issued weapon was a .357 revolver which could only be loaded with .38 special loads, he did not object when I put a .45 acp on my belt, that was fine with him - so go figure.

When the 10mm appeared I jumped on the bandwagon quickly, with a Smith 1006. That quickly became my carry weapon with a federal agency that allowed personally owned weapons with some brand and caliber limitations. They controlled personally owned weapons by issuing the carry round. Our issued pistol at the time was a Smith 9mm.

I attended the S&W auto armorer school and we had a candid dicussion with the instructor on the 10mm round. Bottom line according to him - the FBI killed it with their typical "we know it all, no one else does" attitude. When they had problems with their issued 10mm it was strictly an ammo problem. Both Smith and ammo reps from the two companies they were buying ammo from told the FBI that they specified loads which were too weak to reliably function the pistols. Everyone suggested if they would allow the rounds to be increased about 40 fps in power, their functioning issues would be solved. But the FBI said no, we want the rounds we want at the level we specify, and promptly began to trash the Smith 10mm as unreliable.

Smith developed the 40 S&W as a professional way to thumb their nose at the FBI, as they said they loaded the round to the level the FBI wanted the 10 loaded to, and were able to drop it down to a 9mm frame platform. All of this is from the instructor, but I have read articles in various publications which tend to agree to one extent or another. So if you love the 40, I guess you should thank the FBI for its introduction.

Unfortunately as have been noted already, far too many police agencies tend to take the word of the FBI as gospel, without really doing their own research...so the 10 basically began to die at that point in law enforcement circles, for no valid reason. It is an inherently accurate round in my opinion, which gives the reloader a ton of choices for various weights and power levels. But I eventually sold mine because the instructor admitted S&W had stopped making parts for the pistol. While many of its parts were generic, there were a handful that were specifically made for the platform. His best advice was if you want to keep them, stock up on those parts while they still exist.

When the 357 Sig appeared, I really liked the idea of a round that basically provided 125 JHP .357 magnum performance in a 9mm platform pistol. Eventually once I was satisfied the bugs had been worked out for the most part with a new caliber weapon, I got my first pistol in 357 Sig, a Sig P229. It would have not been my first choice, as I prefer the P226, but I was buying it to carry on duty as a newly authorized weapon model which could be used to replace our issued Glock 19 in 9mm. I could only carry the P229 in 40, so I bought the 40 barrel when I got my pistol.

I like the 40 okay, but don't love it like I did my 10mm. Maybe I just see it as a little brother to the 10. But we were having functioning issues with our 19s, so anything that would let me stop carrying that one was a plus to me, and it was a large chunk of lead going downrange, which never bothers me at all.

Like most reloaders, we tend to change powder choices over time and as new calibers appear. For the most part, now all of my handgun rounds are being loaded with one of the Accurate Arms (Western) powders. In 357 Sig I use no 9 and am amazed at how accurate and consistent my results are. I have yet to find a bullet-powder charge this round does not seem to love.

I am not a big fan of alloy framed weapons, regardless of the brand, including Sigs. When they offered the P226 in stainless with a steel frame I jumped at it. I got it in 357 with 40 and 9mm down barrels, so all 3 calibers in one package. Another big advantage of the Sig is one mag will actually function pefectly in all calibers, which is not always true for some brands. At least I have yet to have the first FTF in any of these calibers.

I then added a BHP in 40 and more recently a CZ75B in 40. I love BHPs but after attending a gun school, I was taught a grip that now causes me to inadvertently cause the slide release latch to lock while shooting. So it is a fun gun for me, but can not be a carry because of that problem. I have not had that problem with any Sigs and do not have it with the CZ75B.

The more I shoot the CZ the more impressed I am with it. I specifically got the CZ in 40 as it gives me the option of getting a 357 Sig barrel for it, and a 9mm down barrel, so again all 3 calibers in one pistol. I guess that to me is the true advantage of the 40 caliber - it offers that option for all 3 calibers. Something I really appreciate with the CZ is also having the option of carrying the weapon hammer down (double action first shot) or cocked and locked (single action). Any of you who have not had the chance to shoot a CZ75B, I suggest you try to find a friend who owns one or a gun store with one as a range gun, and try them out. I will warn you, I can already tell they are very addictive.

The more I shoot the 357 Sig the more I want to shoot it. With the weight of the steel framed P226, even with factory Gold Dots, the felt recoil to me is less perceived than is a 40 subsonic. Two other friends who have fired my pistols (both 226 and 229) had the same perception, that the 357 produced less felt recoil than did the mild 40. I have read the "experts" feel it is due to the fact the slide functions more quickly with the 357. Not sure, but I do enjoy feeling less recoil with a hotter load in 357 Sig.

So a tough vote for me really. I love the 10mm and still have a ton of projectiles for it, even though I no longer own a pistol for it. But at least I can load 40s with them, so they will not go to waste.

If the vote had been 40 v 357, I would have immediately said 357 Sig without question. But these are just my opinions, and I am sure others would vote differently on either the 10 or 40. Why I am glad that some many different pistols and caliber choices still exist - you will be hard pressed not to find something that you like and shoot well.

That to me is the real key. Finding a pistol that fits your hand, regardless of caliber, and practicing until you can fire it well. I think caliber certainly has a bearing downrange, but it will never replace shot placement. No round will do much good unless it hits an area where it can produce realistic damage. Again, just my thoughts, I am sure others will disagree.

two guns
 

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Hello twoguns,

Welcome to the forum and thank you for the very detailed reply that embodies your own personal experience with both calibers.

As to your last statement:


Finding a pistol that fits your hand, regardless of caliber, and practicing until you can fire it well. I think caliber certainly has a bearing downrange, but it will never replace shot placement. No round will do much good unless it hits an area where it can produce realistic damage. Again, just my thoughts, I am sure others will disagree.
You will certainly find good company here and many of those that will agree with you wholeheartily.

Again, welcome to the forum. We look forward to your contributions here.

Chris
 

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Thanks Chris,

I have only been lurking here for about a week now, but my hat is off to its members. Just proves folks can be gun lovers and not be nuts, but I have known that forever, lol. Seriously, I am very impressed with the attitude of members I see here. Seems to be a ton of experience, with everyone being well to share and help others out when they can. My kind of folks for sure.

Any of you who are curious about CZs might want to check out the CZfourm when you have a chance too. Same kind of folks there as here, and I do recognize a few familiar names already.

Glad to be here, and enjoy learning new things about weapons. I think there are many other addictions that are much worse to be cursed with.

twoguns
 
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