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Old 01-24-2011, 02:06 PM   #11
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Pick your shots or "Spray "n' Pray"?

Considering the price of ammo and how angry range guys get if you accidentally shoot the target hanger bar, I still recommend a dry fire laser training tool to gain muscle memory for this type of rapid fire point and shoot drill. It also allows draw from holster practice with complete safety.
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Old 01-30-2011, 09:44 PM   #12
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Pick your shots or "Spray "n' Pray"?

Okay, this is a topic that I have had trouble with and may have some negative feedback but her it goes anyway.

I feel that the two disciplines go hand in hand. I have shot both defensively and bullseye and have found in my 16 year exposure to firearms in an official capacity that the practice of bullseye shpooting with a slant toward speed actually builds confidence of the shooter and in a crisis situation your muscles are going to react they way that they have been trained to. Firearms is a martial discipline, much akin to any other motor skill based function. Your muscles can and will react the way they are trained, either in a positive or negative way. When the poo-poo impacts the oscillation device and you don't have time to think, how you have been trained and muscle memory is what your body is going to do. I have been in high risk situations as a SWAT member and on the street, and I do not in any sense of the word think of myself as an expert, but from my past experiences an garnering knowledge from those that have had similiar experiences, reaction in a crisis situation is going to be a non-thinking immediate response to whatever stimulus has presented itself. I could go on, but am going to rein myself in. I have trained myself to shoot accurately and have found when it comes to draw, my firearm seems to automatically be on target if the fundamentals have been drilled in after repitition to the nth degree. Practice, practice and more practice has always been the key and always will be.
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Old 01-31-2011, 06:48 AM   #13
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Pick your shots or "Spray "n' Pray"?

I'm in agreement with hpconvert. I'm glad he typed all that so I didn't have to.
"Of every one hundred men they send me, ten shouldn't even be here. Eighty of them are nothing but targets, nine of them are real fighters - we are lucky to have them, they make the battle. Ahhhh but the one. One of them is a warrior and he will bring the others home."

Heraclitis, 500 BC.
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Old 05-19-2011, 08:53 PM   #14
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Fire quickly into center mass and if the threat is still active then pick your shots. We just have to balance the two most important parts of a life or death situation. Make sure you live, and make sure nobody else dies.(other than the threat if necessary)

Now if you are firing in defense of somebody else and the threat is unaware of your presence then take your time and make the shot count. You don't want to miss and hit the victim or miss completely and alert the threat to your presence.

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Old 05-19-2011, 09:28 PM   #15
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I am going to use Hollywood as an example. Hiding behind cover and sticking your defensive handgun up over the barrier sideways and popping off a half dozen rounds or more each time (the epitome of spray and pray) is going to leave you looking quite foolish when the thug walks up and caps you, sitting there holding your empty gun. If you can't get the sights aligned on target or be sure of a hit at close up point and shoot range, save that bullet. It might yet save your life.
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Old 05-20-2011, 09:28 AM   #16
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I agree with HP convert in every way. My LE career ended 19 years ago but I have remained active in related training jobs and issues and have a personal standard I will pass along.

First of all, the defender is always at a time disadvantage because only the assailant knows that he is the assailant and only he knows when he will make his move to shoot you. All you can do is react to his threat. I believe, because of this, that your first shot (or first double tap) may be the only shot you get, and you'd darn well better make it count. So when I drag my target to the five yard line and fire my first DA shot or 2T, I judge my current level of proficiency by where that single shot (or double tap) goes. Multiple shot training practices are nice if you have the time, but I believe one to be very foolish if he assumes that he will have time for repeat shots. So my entire defensive training regimen is based on where that first shot/2T of the day goes. If it doesn't go well, then I'm rusty and will occupy myself with getting better. If it goes well, I still occupy myself with getting better, only I'm not quite as disgusted with myself.

My training and expertise is with DA/SA autos, so I always fire at least 20 single DA shots at ranges out to ten yards, point shooting from hip to shoulder level but avoiding use of the sights. At ten yards I am firing from the shoulder with my gaze just over over the top of the pistol. Beyond ten yards I go at least for a flash sight picture and at 15 yards I'm into full sight alignment. (Most of my pistols have three dot sights but I never use the dots.) Then I fire a mag or two of double taps at the same ranges DA/SA to make sure the muscle memory for the transition from DA to SA fire same remains strong.

I always strive to remain proficient in aimed pistol marksmanship, so I always include a SA, aimed, 25 yard phase in my regimen to test my depth perception and motor skills (if you're under 60 you won't understand the last comment.) Besides I still have 20/15 in both eyes and that seems to be the only thing that still works right so I'm going to use it as long as it lasts!! A couple of weeks ago I held 30 SA rounds from a CZ 85B into an 8" circle at 25 yards, so I guess long range badguys are still at risk despite the age and arthritis.

As far as "spray and pray" is concerned, I believe it is only a good idea when your infantry squad gets jumped by an enemy platoon. Any place else it is just not a very smart way to go.

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Old 07-12-2011, 07:05 PM   #17
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Originally Posted by JayPee View Post
I think you'll find your LEO friend has put you on to some good techniques. I was an LEO for 28 years and we were not allowed to even use our sights at the 7 yard line. Yet controlling accuracy without sights at that range is entirely practical and reliable, even in rapid fire situations, given training and practice. So I think you're about to discover the real fun part of pistol shooting, IMHO. I would advise you, since these techniques are new to you, to start slow and work up your proficiency carefully. And remember that eliminating the use of sights was never intended to excuse or facilitate "spray and pray" firing. Don't fire any faster than you can hit the target where you need to hit it. Best wishes.

I agree with JayPee, but I MUST disagree with the opinion that "a laser is nothing more than a cat's toy". I was privileged to enroll in the 2 day personal protection course run by Massad Ayoob. Mas extolled the virtues of the Crimson Trace Lasergrips. He carried a S&W J frame so equipped. We used it in the class to point and shoot/not shoot at projected scenarios on a screen. The lasergrips are a valuable addition to a SD weapon. If that was NOT the case, an expert like Ayoob wouldn't be carrying them himself (nor would Certified NRA Personal Protection Instructors like myself). Since that experience, I've been using them on my every day carry weapons. Currently, I have them on a S&W 642 and a Colt 1911. I expose any students that I train in CCW to the lasergrips, and suggest that they use them. They do NOT negate the need to train, as Jay Pee has delineated above...
SSG. US ARMY Republic of Viet Nam 1968-1969. Life Member of DAV & VFW. Certified NRA Instructor.

Last edited by one eye joe; 07-13-2011 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 07-13-2011, 01:16 AM   #18
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Thumbs Up Pick your shots or Spray & pray?

As a 42 yr LEO (Mil/State) and FBI-tained Instructor I have had to teach some really bad shooters to handle a handgun/shotgun. There is no substitute for practise(live fire/dry fire and presentation) to develope motor skills. The current issue of American Rifleman has a very good article on exercises one needs to practise to build skills. A laser/or Laser grip is a plus. Mr. Camp's affinity for the Browning HP is legendary and I agree-it is the easiest handgun to point and shoot I ever handled, with the 1911 45ACP a very close tie. Glocks just do not come up to my point of aim under stress like a BHP/1911 does. Just a sampling of duty guns I carried over the years-S&W M15 .38. Colt 1911A1 (4),S&W M36 .38, Browning HP (3), Taurus PT92AF 9mm(Beretta 92 copy), Glock 17/21/22, Sig P220 45. Uncover I carried a S&W M36/642w/Laser grips, BHP/Colt 1911/Detonics Combat Master 45 3", Para-Ord Warthog 10shot 45 and an Autauga Arms 32 ACP(Seecamp Improvement).
Range days were long when it was instructor qualification time-I had to shoot 98% scores with up to 10 weapons a quarter to keep current! Our best training aids came with the introduction of paintball and Simunition. The FATS system (Computer-based shoot/don't shoot situations) were taken into the field where you learned that cover and concealment were not the same thing! Those paintballs/Simunitions draw blood if you are not protected! I took a paintball along my cheek(had safety glasses but no helmet, that left a scar and 2 simunition hits on my exposed leg had blood blisters! An example of what practice will do for you-At the 1995 Liquor Law Enforcement Convention hosted by MS ABC, one day was range day. Multiple range competitions for 6 SE USA Alcohol Agencies plus a demo by one of the instructors who was a national level shooter (Massad Ayoob is a friend). First demo was a spray and pray demo- Sig P226 w 4 mags(60 rds)>Rem 870 12 ga w 9 rds.>MP5 9mm Sub gun(30 rds)-all shot dry in 39 seconds w/ no hits outside the 9 ring! Then he did the El Presidente-3 B27 targets-1911 45-2 shots each/reload 2 more shots each at 5-10 yds. Under 3 seconds! Thaaaat is what practice does for you!
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Old 07-13-2011, 08:24 AM   #19
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A VERY accomplished professional such as bubbinator (above) would NOT be carryin' Lasergrips on his 642 if they were simply "a cat's toy". They are THE REAL DEAL, and could help to save your life if the SHTF.......
SSG. US ARMY Republic of Viet Nam 1968-1969. Life Member of DAV & VFW. Certified NRA Instructor.
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