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Old 04-01-2007, 12:25 AM   #11
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.357 Sig, .357 Mag, .40 S&W GDHP, 9mm Win Ranger

Mr. ELB,



A very well done and informative add on report sir, thank you. I think the bottom line for me is that all of these rounds appear to penetrate and expand reliably. Like you I would feel well armed with the 9mm load, but I would also feel well armed with any of these calibers really.



You have me curious as I have not tried it with my HP, but I will the next time I go shooting. I have done this with my Sig P226, but it has always amazed me at how magazine friendly it is too. I can use a M-G 17 rd P226 mag and fire either 17 9mm, or 13 of the 40 or 357 Sigs from the same mag (using the 9mm follower).



In the past I took the 20 rd Sig 9mm mag, changed to a 40 follower, and was able to load 17 rds of 40 when I carried two 226 in 40 at work. I kept standard mags in them, and carried 3 of the 20/17 rd mags in a triple pouch on my gun belt, and 3 more in my tactical vest. I also carried more of the standard mags on my gun belt. Lol, I am someone who feels "too many mags" is a bit hard to define, at least for me.



Now you have me curious. I think I will break out some of my M-G 20 HP mags and see how they work using a both a 9mm and 40 follower in them. If someone else beats me to this (I am fighting a fairly bad case of the flu/crud right now), please let me know how the experiment works out for you - in terms of capacity and more importantly reliability. It would be interesting to compare notes on the 20 rd mags using mulitiple pistols.



But a very informative range report ELB, and I know there are several folks who will sincerely appreciate your efforts. I think many other members will find it a very interesting comparison as well.



You have me scratching my head a bit too about both the 357 Sig and 40 shooting high for you. My FN HP shoots POA/POI with both the 40 and Sig loads. Oops, ok, I have Trijicons installed on mine, and it does shoot POA/POI with both rounds. Sorry I put the Trijicons on the day I got it, so I can not say how the factory sights would have worked for me. I never shot using the factory sights. If it seems to be an consistent issue for you, you might want to consider going with some straight green Trijicons.



Thanks again for the fine report. If you are able to do barriers at some point, please post your results for us. Information like yours is very useful in my opinion, when members are debating trying or carrying a new caliber. Your efforts give a very nice comparison between what I see as 4 excellent carry rounds.



twoguns
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Old 04-01-2007, 07:28 AM   #12
elb
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Mr Camp, Good description: "sedate". Heh. Yes I would not like to stand in front of this round as it goes by.



Twoguns - I had noted in another post that you can shoot all 3 calibers in one of your Sigs using the same mag. Very handy. I haven't looked yet to see exactly what the difference between the HPs 9mm and .40 mags are (other than capacity), but it did get me to thinking. Also to wondering how a 13/15 round HP 9mm mag would work with or without a .40 follower. Etc. Dang, another way to spend money on magazines...







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Old 04-01-2007, 08:58 AM   #13
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Mr. ELB,



Lol, sorry I cause enough problems for myself as it is. If you are patience, then why not hang on. I have some of the 13 and 15 rd 9mm mags, and some 40 followers. While trying the 20rd mags, I will try them too if you like.



Or if you get to it first, let me know how it works for you. I will try to do this sooner than later, but no real guarantees. As I said, I am fighting some kind of crud/flu right now.



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Old 04-20-2007, 03:42 PM   #14
 
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ELB, I've spent my time just reading your outstanding report and the superb work that twoguns has been reporting with his new Chrony. So I'm just now ready to comment on your fine wetpack work along with twogun's data.



And my comment is this....you guys have convinced me I need a .357Sig handgun. Now exactly which one, I need to do a little more study on. When I look at the comparison between your .357Sig bullets and the .357Magnum, I'm amazed at how close to the same they are.

I never did like my .357Magnum revolver due to the horrendous recoil and gave it to a tough, young grandson.



But if the .357Sig is something I could handle from a recoil standpoint, then I'm ready for one.



Excellent reporting and photographs. Thanks again, ELB.



og



And BTW, you are correct about estimating your penetration at 2/3 of gelatin. So all your penetrations easily meet the "FBI" 12 inch rule. Don't worry about your numbers, they are very, very good. However, a wetpack can get too wet and mushy. You will still get expansion but the penetrations will be a little excessive.

Cheers!

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Old 04-21-2007, 07:44 AM   #15
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Hello OG,



Please forgive me if I am taking this a little "off topic", but my "first hand" comparison of the .40 vs. .357 SIG round/platform should bring something to the table so to speak.



I own both the P226 and P239.



I bought the P239 first due to its size and my desire to carry it for legal CWP carry. My observations are as follows for both the G-23, P239 and P226.



When I first got into the .357 SIG round, I first bought a G-32 barrel for my G-23 and decided to shoot it side by side with the .40 S&W. My first observation was that the .357 SIG had less "felt recoil" than the heavier bulleted .40 S&W and the recoil impulse caused the Glock to recoil in more of a straight back direction in my hand than with the less desirable muzzle flip of the .40 S&W.



By coincidence, there were a couple of "off duty" Horry County Deputies at the range the day I was shooting and I asked them to try the .357 barreled G23 to get their impressions. Their normal carry weapon is the larger G22 and both gave me pretty much the same feedback as I just reported. (Of course, they were grinning hugely!)



My next step was to "hand fit" the SIG P239 and originally I thought, "this isn't going to work, the grip size is too small for my meaty paws..." But, I was wrong! The proof is in the shooting as I took a $600.00 gamble and ordered a P239! The P239 turned out to be very ergonomically designed and the grip was just fine under actual shooting conditions!







So, it worked out fine!



Of course, not to be undaunted and with the encouragement of my dear friend Mr. Twoguns, I decided then to order the full size P226 in .357 SIG to see how it would work out for me. Again, I wasn't disappointed, but suprisingly, I actually shoot the P239 a little better due to the slimmer profile of the grip.



Are they both accurate? Indeed a qualified yes! Is one better than the other? The short answer is, "it depends". Both are extremely reliable and accurate. I've shot the P239 with some of my reloads and it holds a slightly better edge for me.



Am I done? No sir, I am saving for the SIG P229 DAK!



ELB. Thank you again for the excellent report and qualitative test!



Chris



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Old 04-23-2007, 10:23 AM   #16
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Howdy Mr. OG,



I wish you could see the grin on my face as I type this. I am glad to hear you are seriously thinking about buying a 357 Sig now sir.



My first suggestion is basically what I normally offer folks. If you can find any among your firends, or gun ranges, it is much better to shoot one first, and several brands if at all possible. If you can't shoot them, they at least handle a variety to see what seems to feel "best" in your hands.



As far as a brand, I doubt if I will surprise you when I suggest the Sig. I have owned several 226s over the years, and prefer it as a carry weapon. Now that they have offered it on the steel frame, it is simply a keeper for me. I do have the 229, and will have to admit, I do not have large hands. The 229 grip feels a bit better to me than the 226 does, but since I am a long time 226 fan, I just shoot my 226 more. Plus my 229 is on an alloy frame, and not a steel frame - which they now offer as a 229 option too.



Mr. Chris is very impressed with his 239. I simply have very little shooting experience with the model, and have never fired one in 357 Sig, so I trust his thoughts on that comparison as well.



I am not really sure what your intended use of the pistol will be either, which could well influence which model is best for you. Are you simply going to have a range gun, a mate house gun to your 1911, or are you giving some thought to concealed carry with it as well. You understand my point I am sure.



There is not magazine capacity difference between the 229 and 226. Even thought the 226 mag is slightly longer, it holds 12 rounds, just like the 229 (in the high cap mag).



Another suggestion I will offer for you to give some thought to as well Mr. OG. If you do decide to go with a Sig, you might want to take a long hard look at their CPO guns. You will end up with a like new pistol, at a cost savings. Then if for whatever reason you decided the 357 Sig is not for you, then you have not made as significant an investment into your first purchase.



I do not know your preference is pistol sights. Personally I like a 3 dot sight, as that is what my eyes just expect to see when I bring a pistol up to take aim. If you are considering nightsights, I will offer this suggestion as well. The Sig nightsights use the Trijicon tubes, but do not have the white outlines around the tubes. Since I prefer a 3 dot sight, I generally buy my Sigs without the nightsights, and add Trijicons to mine.



I hope I have offered some points that you may find useful. Please feel free to pm me if I can answer any other questions for you sir.



You do have us curious now (I am sure Mr. Chris is grinning about like me too, lol). So please keep us in the loop with what you end of deciding. If you do buy a 357 Sig pistol, we would really like to see your range report too.



Good luck Mr. OG. Yell if I can help with other questions. I did not mention the magazine issue that exists within the Sigs if you decided to buy other caliber barrels to fire multiple calibers out of the same pistol. That may or my not be an issue for you to consider as well.



twoguns





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Old 04-23-2007, 02:23 PM   #17
 
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thanks, twoguns and also Carolinaman

I appreciate the advice very much. there is one more item, a Glock. A friend has offered to let me shoot his G33 maybe this weekend. That will at least give me a feel for the recoil, which is my only concern. Based on all reports, the cartridge should feed better than a 9mm, for instance. I'm not a Glock fan so that is not on my list but I'll let you know my opinion.



I've asked my dealer to check on availability and price for a P239. He is very slow and then asks more than internet prices. I would just go ahead and order one by internet but what I'm planning is to trade a 380, or two, for the .357Sig. I sure don't need 4 .380's. Had 5, sold one, need to get rid of more. So it may be several weeks before I can even decide to go ahead with the trade.



I haven't found a better ballistic report anywhere than what ELB just gave us. The beauty of the wetpack is being able to shoot more than one round into the same pack and that way get a direct comparison of several rounds and even several calibers. Can't do that with jello, no way. Who cares if the wetpack is not "certified", "FBI approved", and all that stuff. Wetpacks are fast becoming the standard for ammo comparison, certified or not. And the jello fans need to admit it.



og



(The only gelatin tests I ever trusted were by a certain Goldenloki, check him out.)

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Old 04-23-2007, 05:30 PM   #18
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Quote:
I haven't found a better ballistic report anywhere than what ELB just gave us.


Garsh, OG, thanks! You too, Carolinaman! I'm all atwitter at such praise!



Seriously, I am glad it was helpful to you. I too am intrigued by the .357 Sig round, especially since I can use it in my Hi Power, but for the time being am sticking with my 9mm for concealed carry. Reading up on a number of sources, including Doc Rocket's commentary and references in another post on this forum has convinced me that



- Diffs between quality handgun bullets are not great,



- Any handgun bullet has to be placed accurately to get any worthwhile results,

- Mr. Higginbotham likes to tease about "Half Powers" and "7/8th Powers" :-/, but might be more accurate to talk about the handgun power spectrum as going from "low power" to "slightly more power but still pretty dadgum weak," soooo...





=> Might as well choose the caliber that lets me carry more rounds in the same space. Many accurate shots should work better than fewer accurate shots!



I am very happy with my 9mm Hi Power after this past weekend. See this post for excessive bragging about accuracy. http://handgunsandammo.proboards36.c...ead=1177305152. Not claiming I could replicate 100 yard shots at will, but it was fun.



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Old 05-26-2012, 10:55 AM   #19
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Hellooo

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Stephens View Post
Hello OG,



Please forgive me if I am taking this a little "off topic", but my "first hand" comparison of the .40 vs. .357 SIG round/platform should bring something to the table so to speak.



I own both the P226 and P239.



I bought the P239 first due to its size and my desire to carry it for legal CWP carry. My observations are as follows for both the G-23, P239 and P226.



When I first got into the .357 SIG round, I first bought a G-32 barrel for my G-23 and decided to shoot it side by side with the .40 S&W. My first observation was that the .357 SIG had less "felt recoil" than the heavier bulleted .40 S&W and the recoil impulse caused the Glock to recoil in more of a straight back direction in my hand than with the less desirable muzzle flip of the .40 S&W.



By coincidence, there were a couple of "off duty" Horry County Deputies at the range the day I was shooting and I asked them to try the .357 barreled G23 to get their impressions. Their normal carry weapon is the larger G22 and both gave me pretty much the same feedback as I just reported. (Of course, they were grinning hugely!)



My next step was to "hand fit" the SIG P239 and originally I thought, "this isn't going to work, the grip size is too small for my meaty paws..." But, I was wrong! The proof is in the shooting as I took a $600.00 gamble and ordered a P239! The P239 turned out to be very ergonomically designed and the grip was just fine under actual shooting conditions!







So, it worked out fine!



Of course, not to be undaunted and with the encouragement of my dear friend Mr. Twoguns, I decided then to order the full size P226 in .357 SIG to see how it would work out for me. Again, I wasn't disappointed, but suprisingly, I actually shoot the P239 a little better due to the slimmer profile of the grip.



Are they both accurate? Indeed a qualified yes! Is one better than the other? The short answer is, "it depends". Both are extremely reliable and accurate. I've shot the P239 with some of my reloads and it holds a slightly better edge for me.



Am I done? No sir, I am saving for the SIG P229 DAK!



ELB. Thank you again for the excellent report and qualitative test!



Chris
Thank-you for your information. My wife & I bought a Sig 229 (also a .357sigbarrel ) with DAK trigger--all I can say is that this beauty is a keeper for life! Made the recoil into a pussycat & accuracy was elxcellent! Take down of this firearm is simple--and I believe in the KISS system!
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