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Old 06-21-2008, 04:00 PM   #1
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Winchester White Box? Please be More Specific!

Hello, I've been wanting to post the below for quite some time now... so here it goes!

Sadly it seems that any time someone talks about Winchester's USA Brand of ammo they simply just refer to it as Winchester White Box, regardless of whether their talking about the 50 round box or the Value-Pack stuff.

And usually more often than not, their not just asking for opinions on the said ammo, but their Having Cycling, Feeding or Extraction Problems (if not all three)... and they along with the kind helpful folks that reply to their thread(s) simply just keep saying WWB or Winchester USA Ball... and they, including the thread starter(s) "usually" never say whether their firing the 50 round box ammo or the Value-Pack stuff... and there IS a Big Differance between the two!

What's the differance??? Their both Winchester USA. That part is true! BUT, the big differance IS, the 50 round box ball for the most part is pretty decent ammo, but the Value-Pack stuff is basically Factory Seconds that doesn't meet the "stricter spec's" of what goes into the 50 round boxes.

Yes, I know that some of you have good luck with the Value-Pack stuff in "your gun". But as we all know, their are NO two guns that are exactly the same, and when you try running the Value-Pack stuff in guns that came from the factory with tolerance stacking, extractors that are on the verge of being outta spec, breech-faces that are on the verge of being outta spec, recoil-springs that are on the heavy-side of being outta spec, Ect., Ect., Ect.. Then all the sudden your once reliable gun starts failing, and the threads & replies start appearing (which is in no-way a bad thing) except for usually "not being specific" and just saying, well, I was shooting WWB or I was shooting Winchester White Box, or I was shooting Wally World White Box and my gun has never failed before, which was/is true, except they had always (in most cases) used the 50 round boxes before, but they usually fail to be specific and mention the fact, that this time they picked-up a Value Pack.

So Please, be Specific when your talking about Ammo and include the Stock Number, whether it's Winchester or not, for example, Remington has their Value-Pack stuff as well, and I suspect other makers do too, if not you'll probally see it sooner than later. And, I strongly suspect that any & all of the Value-Pack "stuff" is Factory Seconds! Does this mean that it's un-safe to shoot??? That I can't honestly answer, but just knowing or even suspecting that ammo "is or could be" seconds is a good enough reason for me Not to buy it.

Do I only shoot Premium Ammo? Heck NO, I can't afford it! Then why do I insist on buying the pricer 50 round boxes of range ammo instead of Value-Pack's? Because I can't afford Not to...

Thanks,

Bob
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Old 06-21-2008, 07:39 PM   #2
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Winchester White Box? Please be More Specific!

I try to (sometimes I forget) always use the stock number when talking about ANY ammo.



For instance, the Remington/UMC 100 round JHP is LM9MM1B, the WWB 100 round Bulk Pack is USA9MMVP and the 50 round tray pack is Q4172.



This positively identifies what we're talking about. Sometime back I was discussing something about ammo with a gentleman here and it took us a while to realize we were discussing two totally different loads.



Please list the stock number, usually found on the end of the box.





That said, I take exception to condemning some of the second (or third) tier loads. If its all you can afford, so be it. Better to function test your weapon and all magazines with an inexpensive load than to buy one box of premium stuff, pop a few, load the rest for carry and hope for the best.



As I've repeatedly said, if you can afford better, buy better. Not everyone can.







Regards,



Pat



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Old 06-21-2008, 07:48 PM   #3
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Winchester White Box? Please be More Specific!

Hello & Thanks Pat for urging them to include the stock number. I was gonna put that in the original post and it slipped my mind... It's there now thow.

Thanks Again.
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"LONG LIVE THE FN-BROWNING-SAIVE HIGH POWER"

John Browning & Dieudonne Saive's Designs Will Always be Light Years Ahead of All the Others.

I'd rather beat a bad guy to death with my Browning High Power, than shoot him dead with a "plastic pistol".

Fighting Tyrants & Traitors is a 24/7 Job that Must be Done!

The Second Amendment was not written in order to protect your right to shoot deer, it was written to protect your right to shoot tyrants if they take over the government. ~ Judge Andrew Napolitano

Free Men Do Not Ask Permission to Bear Arms. ~ Thomas Jefferson
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Old 06-22-2008, 01:03 PM   #4
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Winchester White Box? Please be More Specific!

I am afraid I am among the offenders on this issue. To me "white box" can be the REM stuff in the green boxes, UMC in the yellow or the WIN in any of the bulk packs like they have at Wally's or the 50 packs at the gun shows. I will endeavor to be more specific.
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Old 06-23-2008, 10:56 AM   #5
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Winchester White Box? Please be More Specific!

The other day I called Winchester and sent an e-mail re 00 buckshot, 15 rnd/bx at Wally's showing Code XB1200VP. (Listing in their catalog was XB1200.) I was assured via both phone and e-mail that ammo was the same. VP designation was VALUE PACK only, therefore cheaper. No difference in quality, specs, etc. Anyone know differently? Thanks!
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Old 06-23-2008, 12:07 PM   #6
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Winchester White Box? Please be More Specific!

Hello. Over the chronograph, I've gotten more variation from the VP ammo than the 50-round USA. In one box, the FMJ bullets used were not even all the same ogive!



I do not believe that the VP is the same quality as the 50-rnd boxes.



Best.



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Old 06-24-2008, 12:42 AM   #7
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Winchester White Box? Please be More Specific!

I have had failures to extract with the bulk stuff. Not so with the 50 round USA.



Josh <><
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Old 11-25-2008, 01:46 PM   #8
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Winchester White Box? Please be More Specific!

Have shot 1000 rounds or so of the WWB Wal mart purchased Winchester 9mm's in the 100 round value pack in IDPA matches over the last year. Another couple of thousand of my handloads practice



Guy at our club said 2 or 3 rounds of every thousand WWB will fail to fire. I thought no but other night in a match two fails to fire. Messed my score up good. Now the failure rate for WWB is about the same as my handloads.



My take is nothings perfect. There is going to be a point In IDPA that I can't afford to take a chance in matches with less than the best. Not there yet.



Smallbore Rifle Schuetzen I am paying 11 bucks or more for 50 match 22 rimfire rounds. And it's a 100 shot match. One bad shot and I am out of contention. Given driving expense match fees etc no sense cheeping out on the ammo.



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Old 11-25-2008, 05:28 PM   #9
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Winchester White Box? Please be More Specific!

Preaching to the converted Boats! I use the REM version of bulk ammo from Dick's Sporting Goods and in many years of IDPA competition I have never had a failure to fire. I have not heard of any issues with the WIN bulk ammo in my circle but then again...



I see lots of failures with reloads which is probably a reflection on the loader and not the process. However, it does not make a lot of sense to take crummy loads to a match you pay money to enter! A few years ago I paid a lot of $ to enter a match and then ended DNF (did not finish) when my crummy reloads went south.



My experience is that when you pay a lot of $ to enter a match, use quality ammo. I have been very happy with my REM bulk buy ammo. When you buy a case you get 10% off and when you accumulate enough points they give you a $10 gift card. I have even gotten some managers to cut me a rate because I am a regular.



Now, having said all that I am a permanent SS in just about every division! It is still the nut behind the trigger.
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Old 11-25-2008, 06:50 PM   #10
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Winchester White Box? Please be More Specific!

Gents,



This is why I always try to include the manufacturer's code when discussing ammunition, which by the way, was an excellent suggestion.

Let's face it, we can afford to shoot lower quality ammo when practicing, but for serious use, as Bob noted, you can't afford not to shoot known "good ammo". Worst case us you'll get to do stoppage drills when using the cheap stuff.

That brings us to the old caveat of testing your carry load with the pistol and magazines you'll be carrying.

As an aside, the "real" Winchester White Box was what I purchased and took to Desert Shield/Desert Storm. Good thing, as the supply system had none to issue. Nothing like carrying a 1911A1 and not having anything to feed it...!

NEVER trust someone else to look out after your well being.



Wes



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