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Old 12-04-2007, 06:25 AM   #1
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 139
Going "Dutch".

Howdy. this question arose from reading the thread by Mr Leyland-Ray titled "Trip to town with a Hi power".


it is born from naivety and may very well be best answered by Mr Ray himself. however i am sure many people carry this way so feel free to comment.

I noted you went "Dutch" with the ammo. what advantage does this have and does it present problems for POI. if so to what degree. do you have to test and match the ammo prior to going "dutch".

Thanks Bang bang.
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Old 12-04-2007, 10:17 AM   #2
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 218
Going "Dutch".

Hello Bangband,

Sorry I can't answer any of your questions, but will give this tidbit of information: It is my understanding that Game Wardens in Texas load their Glocks Dutch. Next time I see Ellis, my Game Warden friend, I will ask him some of your questions.

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Old 12-04-2007, 11:04 AM   #3
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Going "Dutch".

G'day Mate,

Back in the dark ages, when I was doing a bit of close protection work we used Dutch loads because we wanted to take down anything that came our way. Hollow points were perceived as relatively new and a somewhat unknown quantity, and whilst FMJ was great for drilling holes in stuff it wasn't 'trusted' either. That was before body armour was much of a consideration.

Now, some of the 'old lads', and a few younger ones, still carry Dutch loads because they want FMJ to punch holes through body armour to hit their intended target know that mushrooming hollow points are more easily stopped by body armour. The hollow points are carried because they are now a proven quantity against soft targets.

As for ballistics, it is simply a matter of having FMJ and HP rounds that approximate each other for mass (weight) and velocity.

Ballistics for the various rounds regardless of mass or velocity don't really differ that much to be much of a consideration in a real world self defence shooting situation. You are talking about a matter of 1 - 2cm at anything under 25m anyway.


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Old 12-04-2007, 05:43 PM   #4
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,642
Going "Dutch".

I wouldn't see that the POI would be that much different, as long as the loads weren't too extreme. A 38 Special loaded with one of the old plastic bulleted, high-speed, Thunderzaps for a first shot and a low-speed 148 wadcutter for the second might be a different story.

I never liked the idea myself, since I cannot predict what round I would need when.

My old college roommate was the first person I knew of who did this. He loaded his .38 J-frame with "a shot round to sting 'em, a couple of hollow points if I really had to hurt 'em", and two of the old metal-piercing, pointed noses "in case I have to stop their car".

Uh-huh. He had it all figured out.

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Old 12-04-2007, 08:49 PM   #5
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brooklyn, Mississippi
Posts: 1,442
Going "Dutch".

Basically I want to cover my bets. A 9mm NATO round won't go through body armor, but it will give good penetration, even through layers of clothing. A hollow point might not penetrate as well, but it will open up a good wound channel.

Maybe I'm just superstitious, but I want to make sure that when I shoot at something, it STAYS SHOT.
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Old 12-04-2007, 09:38 PM   #6
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Australia
Posts: 139
Going "Dutch".

Thanks gents,

hand guns here are strictly for club target use only so would never be an issue here anyway but i was just curious. thanks for your comments.

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Old 12-05-2007, 12:33 AM   #7
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Going "Dutch".

9mm NATO FMJ will punch through lower rated body armour. A cursory purusal of the published vest ratings will tell you that so it isn't privileged information nor a deep, dark secret never to be devulged on the Internet.
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Old 12-05-2007, 01:18 AM   #8
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: southern AZ
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Going "Dutch".

Howdy folks,

I agree it may not be a deep dark secret, never to be revealed on the net, but it does not thrill us to see it being discussed on this site. Since many of our members trust their lives daily to body armor, one of our rules is that discussion of rounds that will defeat body armor is NOT ALLOWED HERE.

I am sure folks can understand the purpose/intent of that rule, and would simply remind everyone of its existence. Please remember it the next time you are about to type something in that area.


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Old 12-05-2007, 03:47 AM   #9
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Going "Dutch".


Mr. twoguns is quite correct and its time to lock this thread.


Proud member of the Horry County Tokarev Society.
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