Handguns and Ammunition Forum banner

9mm or 38 super 1911?

33K views 25 replies 18 participants last post by  cxm 
#1 ·
I have been thinking of getting a Rock Island Armory 1911 in 9mm or 38 super. I need info the pros and cons of a 1911 in 9mm or 38 super? I have seen both pistol around $450.
 
#2 ·
I do not own a full size 1911 in 9mm, but I own a Springfield Armory EMP in 9mm, and a Colt Defender in 9mm, and I LOVE them!! Easy shooting, accurate, cheap to shoot....what is not to like. I stay on the outlook for a Colt Combat Commander in 9mm, but no luck so far.

I don't really care for the Govt. size except in my WWl and WWll guns. I keep hoping that Ruger, Sig, Rock Island, or anyone in a reasonable price range would offer Commander size in 9mm.
 
#4 ·
The full size 1911 frame and springing has in the past required a longer case length than 9mm and early 1911's in 9mm were not fully reliable performers. Today, some manufacturers alter the gun's dimensions to make them reliable for 9mm. The EMP is a sterling example. If you plan to use a 'to specs' 1911 frame in either std 5" or Commander in 4.25", then .38Super would be a better choice than 9mm. Buffalo Bore and Cor-Bon make 38Super ammo that gets the nearly the same bullet weight and velocity as 9mm+P+ ammo currently gets, without the higher pressures.

I have used a 9mm conversion on my .38Super and it worked ok but I was more pleased with the controlability of the .38Super over the 9mm in +P and +P+. Of course one could use std velocity 9mm in the conversion, but if optimal ammo performance is important.....
 
#5 ·
Favorable to .38 Super: Slight edge in reliability in a 1911 due to the longer case length. This may be a factor given your choice of an RIA produced weapon, which are serviceable but not upper tier weapons.

Favorable to 9mm: greater variety and afforadabilty in ammunition. This can be important if you're not a handloader.
 
#12 ·
I believe that a platform should primarily fire the cartridge it was designed for.

In the 1911's case that means the .45 ACP with a few notable exceptions. Those being 38 Super and 10mm. With that said I would favor the 38 Super over the 9mm but if you don't reload you will have to learn.
 
#6 ·
After years to trying to get 9mm to be reliable in a 1911, my observations of them in IDPA competition are that many of the problems have been worked out. I see the Springfields and STIs in 9mm with some regularity where they perform well. I also see a few frankensteins used as test beds but that is mainly for the tinkerers amongst us.

38 SUP was all the rage in IPSC back in the 1980's. There were some accuracy issues due to the semi-rim headspace issue and as a result we saw the rise of the custom Nine cartridges (9X21 and others). I think that issue addressed.

I have seen the RIAs in 45 ACP in action at the local IDPA matches. Some work and some don't which may be attributable to crap ammo, bad mags or operator error (maintenance or lubrication). However, I see the same things with very expensive versions.

When I was in my 1911 9mm phase, the issue was magazines. The ones available then were spaced from the rear. Springfield now adds the space (a fold of metal) on the front of the mag. I am not sure what Wilson Combat does for 9mm because I have not seen one.

And, then there is the extraction issue. Most of the extractors I see are marked 9mm/38 Super. That means it will have to be carefully fitted as the shape of the 9P extractor groove is substantially different from the 38s semi-rim.

One thing is for certain, should you go down the path of 9/38, you will get some quality time in issue diagnosis and repair. Did I mention springs? Yep, there is a whole nother world of pain with them.
 
#8 ·
When I was in my 1911 9mm phase, the issue was magazines. The ones available then were spaced from the rear. Springfield now adds the space (a fold of metal) on the front of the mag. I am not sure what Wilson Combat does for 9mm because I have not seen one

The Wilson Combat Elite Tactical Mag in 9mm has the spacer in the rear of the mag. It works fantastic in my Defender. The MecGar Mag made for, and marked Colt on the base plate, moved the spacer from the rear to the front of the mag, plus a totally different follower(plastic instead of metal) to correct the feeding problems of the Colt Defender in 40 S&W.
 
#7 ·
Hello - I'd get The Super!

This will get the .45'ers all drawled-up in a knot (Wes Howe, you rascal) but I actually believe that The Super .38 Cartridge (when properly loaded) out performs The Forty-Five when it comes to overall performance.

Steve Camp (God rest his soul) loaded 147-gr. JHPs to around 1200-fps for his Super and a 147-gr JHP clockin' Twelve-Hundred Feet Per Second Makes an Awesome Load - and it's a load that the ammo companies Should Offer as a Standard Defense Load for The Super.

Genuine COLT Parts, Springs & Magazines are what I'd exclusively use in the RIA if you get one - regardless of the cartridge you choose to go with.

One Eye Joe has an interesting Super .38 thread here http://pistolsmith.com/38-super/22946-badmans-special.html

BTW: Super .38 is the Cartridge's Original & Correct Name - and it's the name that COLT used for cartridge from it's introduction in 1929 untill around 1970 when they started calling it .38 Super and they changed the name "due to fools" loading Super .38 Cartridges into their .38 ACPs.

Long Live The Super .38 ~ it may just be The Perfect Cartridge for The 1911 Pistol.
 
#10 ·
Gents,

OK, I'll weigh in on this, but only because Bob Reed prodded me to...;-)

First, handguns generally run best using cartridges they were designed for...one reason I like the 1911 AND the .45 ACP cartridge. Also, there is a proven history there. Both historically, and personnally.

The .38 ACP(now .38 Super) was plagued by accuracy problems and only offered FMJ ammo in the yearly years. Still, it developed a following. My personal belief is that it might have died off if not for the shooting sports and it's ability to make major caliber AND offer higher magazine capacity.

Today, the .38 Super is developed as both a round for gamesmen AND self-defense. Ammo availability is the real issue in the latter. There are only a few loads available and those are not easy to come by.

For the cost conscious the 9mm makes A LOT of sense. As a self defense round it does too. As much as we pontificate about cartridges, pistols, gear, etc. The only real issue is placement. That's what does the job...time after time.

To me, the 1911 and the .45 ACP are a marriage made in heaven. A proper pistol and a cartridge that have stood the test of time...and will continue to do so.

If FORCED to make a choice between the 9mm and the .38 Super I'd vote NEITHER and go for the cartridge I believe is as good or superior to the .45 ACP...the 10mm.

I will now gird for battle, put on my titanium underwear Chealtham body armor and await the incoming storm of protest. Smug in the knowledge that God, John Browning, the 1911, and .45 ACP are the finest combination of ammunition and pistol ever devised.

Feel free to ask me how I really feel.

Wes
(The crusty, opinionated, retired jarhead officer...)
 
#11 ·
I have three 1911 in 45cal. I have been thinking of going javelina hunting when I get better. A 9mm or a 38 super would work and for that matter a 45acp would work. I have a old 1911 with a 6 inch slide with a witchita comp. that would work. The range could be up to 50-75 yards. It's the challenge of how close you can get. A plus is that my wife said I could get a new pistol to help me to rehab. If I stay with the 45acp I will use a 200gr XTP +P load the last time I check them I was getting about 1050-1100 fps and around 490-530 ft-lbs. The 9mm I was thinking of a 124gr XTP +P+ or the 38 super with a 124gr XTP
 
#17 ·
#13 ·
I too believe in getting the cartridge/caliber in the size the firearm was designed to use. I didn't believe this two years ago.

I will own a full size 1911 someday. Unless I stumble on a deal it will probably be in early 2014 before I can get my ducks in a row. I will continue my research until then.

Right now if I were going for around $950 - $1200 range:
STI, Dan Wesson, Colt, S&W

Otherwise:
Ruger, RIA

(I don't mind the external extractor on the S&W, I kind of view it like the external versus internal extractors on the BHP).

If I were researching 1911's in 9mm and Super 38 I would consider that a gun is a clockwork and timing is everything. There maybe some alloy models with springs that work well that have ejection ports that match and extractors that get the job done. Those are the things I would look for.

But seriously, just get another Browning Hi-Power! :)
 
#14 ·
Washowe,

No argument from me on the 1911/.45acp combo but having tried the .38 Super in a LW Commander, I add the .38 Super as a viable defense cartridge that works well in the 1911 platform. It's not as good, but still acceptable for 1911 users.... just my opinion, also from a retired jarhead officer.
 
#15 ·
Antares,

Semper Fi!

You'll note I don't discount the .38 Super as a defensive cartridge. Personally, I think it's a darn good one, but does have a few draw backs.

If the .38 Super was loaded properly and marketed there would have been no need for the .357 Sig, IMHO.

Still, I'll carry what I prefer and that will be the .45.

Isn't choice wonderful?

Actually, I've always wanted to try the .38 Super in the 1911, but the larger calibers always won out.

Perhaps, what I need is a 1911 in .50 cal?

Wes
 
#16 ·
Antares,

Perhaps, what I need is a 1911 in .50 cal?

Wes
Well Wes they have those now, whatcha waitin' for? ;)

About the only factory made defensive load I'd want to use in .38 Super would be Cor Bon. Their stuff chronos out to the velocities claimed by the company, across the screens of two different PACT machines we bring to the range.

There are some smaller ammo companies making .38 super JHP ammo but I haven't stumbled across any to buy and try.

Another option would be to run 9x23 Winchester ammo thru a .38 Super**. It's something I've tried without observing any pressure signs or other issues. And out of my 5" gun the 9x23 (both available loads from Winchester) were going 1500 fps just as claimed by the company.

If not willing to go these these lengths I think one would be better served by going with a 9mm 1911 variant.



**Experts vary as to their opinions of running 9x23 Winchester ammo in a .38 super chamber. The cartridges are very similar in dimension, other than the 9x23 lacking the semi-rim found on the Super. As stated, my experience was a-okay doing this but then again I didn't shoot a bazillion round of any kind thru that gun.
 
#18 ·
briand,

You're not helping my pocketbook or 1911 fetish by letting me know there is a .50 cal (.50 ACP?) out there. I like the .45 and the .50 seems like maybe to much of a good thing.

Still it would be fun to play with. Interesting that no one has tried a .50 cal in a Commander size or Officer sized 1911? That WOULD be pushing the envelope a bit.

For now I'll stick with the .45 ACP and you folks can just think of me as a a non-progressive fuddy duddy...;-)

Wes
 
#20 ·
This is a great thought provoking thread. Having shot a few belonging others, I've long wanted a .38 Super and once spent an enjoyable afternoon with an acquaintance's Colt Government Model 9mm. I would be keen on either, even after reading the pitfalls that experienced shooters have related here. My eyes are more opened to issues that might befall the fellow who has 1911 guns chambered for cartridges other than .45 ACP.
 
#22 ·
Here is my Colt Series 70 Super .38 / 9MM ....What is interesting, I can use the Super mag for BOTH rounds..



The 9 MM barrel took a bit of fitting to make it feed cleanly. But it is sweet to shoot!!!! I got a cheapie barrel from SARCO.. And the ammo is a lot cheaper!!!! All it took was a barrel change..

The two mags on the left are Super .38s with a Super round and a 9 MM round.

The mag on the right is a 9 MM mag and you can see the spacer in the rear..



Here is the chamber of the 9 MM in its final iteration. Not very pretty, however it works and feeds just fine with no evidence of overpressure even with some pretty hot rounds!!! I have put a couple thousand rounds of 9 MM through it!!

I have some Canadian Sub Gun ammo that is HOT, and it ate it right up!! I got the cheapy barrel from SARCO. I think I paid $40.00 bucks for it...

 
#23 ·
My first question would be: Do you reload?
If you do, I'd get the Super. It will do anything the 9mm will do except shoot the most common and often cheapest ammo (9mm), but if you reload, you won't care as much.
If you don't reload, get the 9mm so you can not only find cheaper ammo, you can find ammo.

Personally, I think the Super is easier to load for. I have had some crummy shooting 9mm loads, but can't remember a really bad Super load. Kinda like the .38 Spl and 45 ACP, a bad shooting load comes as a big surprise.

I'm another who feels guns are best in their original chambering (and length, and frame material, etc). I also feel that as much as I like them, the 1911 is one of the best examples of that because it doesn't adapt to change as well as some.
However, the Super was designed for the 1911, so it's not much different in my opinion. OK, OK, it was just a hot-rodded 38 ACP*, which was around before the Super, but still.

And it seems to me that John Browning was a fan of .38 auto cartridges. When I have looked back at his auto pistol designs, it looks to me like the majority were .38s of some sort. Maybe I'm reading too much into that, but it makes me think he was a fan of that bore size. And taking that another step, and I'm really speculating here, I wonder if when he designed the 1911 he thought how nice it might be in a .38 caliber and allowed accordingly for a future adaptation.
I don't know. He never said anything to me about it.

*BTW, the 38 ACP was loaded to almost Super velocity at the very beginning, but was toned down. So in essence, the Super was the return of the original plan for the 38 ACP.

And keep in mind if you ever need them for either a 9mm or Super, in addition to using a different ejector and extractor, the firing pin is different. It has a smaller diameter tip, which reduces chances of primer material being squished into the pin opening in the breech from the higher pressure cartridges.
 
#25 · (Edited)
I do not reload, and the Super frame has a slightly different feed ramp than the .45, which helps with the 9MM. I have shot several different brands of Luger through it both commercial reloads and new factory without a single malfunction, and this includes both hardball and HP...

The 9mm recoil is delightful!!!!!! And speaking of muzzle flash, the Canadian subgun ammo is HOT and the report and flash will get your attention.....
 
#26 ·
The 38 Super generally is very reliable in a 1911 platform... the 9x19 tends to be a bit unpredictable... as others have pointed out.

While I prefer a 9x23 over the 38 Super, the Super is still a good choice...

I only have one 1911A1 left in 38 Super... this 1947 example made with quite a few WWII parts with the barrel probably being pre WWII. The stocks are straight WWII GI.



There is not a lot special about this 38 Super... not much changed from when it left the factory.



This example was made prior to the change over to the 38 Super head spacing on the case mouth rather than the rim... I expect the gun would not be extremely accurate.



Colt's could do a really nice blue back then...

V/r

Chuck
 
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top