holding a gun is tiring

Sig Sawer · 04-07-2012, 01:48 PM

50 shots today. I think I'm getting better as there's no flyers. Shot at 21 feet.

joe b. · 04-08-2012, 05:46 PM

13 round capacity, Hmmm. If you are steadily holding the gun up and shooting the magazine dry, you are probably getting tired and also rushing to get all shots fired, and not even realize it. If so, try 3 shot groups and either bring the gun down to about a 45° forward "at ready" position for a breather, or rest completely by either laying the weapon down if at a shooting bench, or holster it. Take a short break and then shoot 3 more. Repeat.

Remember you are not just holding up the weight of the gun, but your arms too, plus concentrating on your sights and trigger squeeze. These are fatiguing. Take your time and keep it safe but keep it fun too. In an encounter you are most likely to fire 1 to 3 shots and then assess if there is any further danger. Again that forward ready position as long as a threat is still possible, and if the threat no longer exists, holster the gun. Practice as it would likely go down in real life. Not droning on round after round until the mag is empty. I bet your groups will get smaller and less downward drifting.

You have a great gun there. Enjoy lots of quality trigger time.

Sig Sawer · 04-08-2012, 06:13 PM

You may be right there. I was emptying the mag 10 rnds each time.

**silversport** · 04-09-2012, 01:36 PM

I had been finding some of mine going low, right (I'm a South Paw) and wonder if I might be squeezing the grips when I depress the trigger...I believe this is one outcome from doing that...how 'bout you???

Bill

Sig Sawer · 04-09-2012, 03:40 PM

I don't really know, never did notice it.

Sig Sawer · 04-15-2012, 10:17 AM

Another 50 rounds. Seems to be doing the same thing.

oberstlt · 04-15-2012, 10:56 AM

SS- I think you continue to rush your shots by not holding the trigger to the rear long enough to give the bullet a chance to leave the barrel. We react unconsciously to the flash, blast and noise of the primer detonation and that snaps our wrists down which accounts for the low group. When the shot breaks, hold the trigger to the rear until the sights come back down on the target. It is only a fraction of a second but it does the job.

As to the left group, in my experience that is a result of "too much finger". What I mean by that is in order to gain leverage over the resistance of the trigger spring, we go beyond the "power crease" (first joint) on a double action gun. On a DAO, you only need to position the trigger in the "DIP" joint and leave it there while your finger is on the trigger. If you put it in too far, shots go to the left. If you don't put it in far enough, they drift to the right.

Sig Sawer · 04-15-2012, 12:15 PM

I did as y'all suggested. I took my time and squeezed the trigger til it broke. Held it back on follow through. I even gave it more time between shots and put the gun down a moment.

I think it's the long action of the trigger that's messing me up.

joe b. · 04-15-2012, 02:52 PM

Sig Sawer,

First off, I don't want to come across as rude or trying to offend you, but I am beginning to believe you just need more "quality" trigger time and you will improve. ("The way to Carnegie Hall is practice, practice, practice"). Handguns are difficult to master. Comparing the size of your gun to the group it looks like the string is 10-12" vertically and 8-10" horizontally. And you stated previously that you were shooting 21 feet. With a 3" SCCY or Kel-Tec P11 (which does not have a nice forgiving trigger) I would expect to keep most if not all of a magazine in the center ring, maybe a few in the next ring. With a 5" 1911 or my XD.45 they would pattern about the same, but at 25 yards, not feet.

I believe the cure is going to be more quality, less quantity, shooting time and maybe some hand and arm strength exercises. Especially to learn to isolate the trigger finger from the rest of the hand muscles when pulling the trigger. Plus supporting the weight of the gun, your arms and holding on target.

By all means, if you think there is a problem with the gun, ask an experienced shooter to fire it and see if the problem persists. Trigger problems can be cured, and steps taken to improve it, such as a lower but safe pull weight, overtravel stop, reduce creep, etc.

But honestly if there were serious issues with the gun or your shooting, I would not expect to see such a really nice cluster in the center ring. That, then the downward drift still indicates fatigue to me, and possible rushing the rest of your shooting to get a whole box "shot up". Or causing "zone out" from concentrating too hard on what you are doing. So I am going to revise my previous advice.

Shoot three shots. Holster or otherwise secure the gun and walk away, maybe sit down a few minutes. Then fire another 3 shot group. Do this 5 times (15rds) and stop. If they are all in the center or first two rings, your shooting is fine, and you are simply trying to shoot too much at one time, and fatigue is taking its toll. Pay ranges are expensive and you have a deadline, and these are not conducive to "quality trigger time". That is the key. Forget quantity. You don't improve by shooting more boxes of ammo, but by shooting more often and quit when it gets tiring, boring, or no fun.

Again, no insult or offense intended, just trying to be straight forward, which sadly can be misconstrued when it is not heard in a friendly tone of voice. No one (or at least mighty few) is a born crack shot. I recently tutored a 13 year veteran of Tulsa PD in rifle shooting. He was fine with a handgun, but had almost no experience with a rifle. With a little guidance and a lot of quality trigger time (I gave him unlimited access to my rural property for target practice, a major factor in his improvement) and fun practice at a relaxed pace, spread out over several months, he is now a force to be reckoned with when it comes to his AR 15 carbine.

Keep shooting, be safe, enjoy your gun and your 2A rights.

**abninftr** · 04-15-2012, 03:12 PM

Sig, three suggestions:
1. Try doing some dry firing for a while the day before you go to the range. See if there is any improvement.
2. Try doing hand strengthening exercises as I previously suggested.
3. Also, take a different gun, one with a smaller grip and shorter trigger reach to the range and fire it halfway through your range session. See if you have the same problem.

04-09-2012, 01:36 PM	#14
silversport Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: ChicagoLand USA Posts: 494	I had been finding some of mine going low, right (I'm a South Paw) and wonder if I might be squeezing the grips when I depress the trigger...I believe this is one outcome from doing that...how 'bout you??? Bill __________________ *Fast is fine...accuracy is final.* Like what you have???...Thank a Vet.

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holding a gun is tiring

holding rifle tiring

sigsawer p250

04-07-2012, 01:48 PM	#11
Sig Sawer Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 38	50 shots today. I think I'm getting better as there's no flyers. Shot at 21 feet.

04-08-2012, 05:46 PM	#12
joe b. Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 313	13 round capacity, Hmmm. If you are steadily holding the gun up and shooting the magazine dry, you are probably getting tired and also rushing to get all shots fired, and not even realize it. If so, try 3 shot groups and either bring the gun down to about a 45° forward "at ready" position for a breather, or rest completely by either laying the weapon down if at a shooting bench, or holster it. Take a short break and then shoot 3 more. Repeat. Remember you are not just holding up the weight of the gun, but your arms too, plus concentrating on your sights and trigger squeeze. These are fatiguing. Take your time and keep it safe but keep it fun too. In an encounter you are most likely to fire 1 to 3 shots and then assess if there is any further danger. Again that forward ready position as long as a threat is still possible, and if the threat no longer exists, holster the gun. Practice as it would likely go down in real life. Not droning on round after round until the mag is empty. I bet your groups will get smaller and less downward drifting. You have a great gun there. Enjoy lots of quality trigger time.

04-08-2012, 06:13 PM	#13
Sig Sawer Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 38	You may be right there. I was emptying the mag 10 rnds each time.

04-09-2012, 03:40 PM	#15
Sig Sawer Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 38	I don't really know, never did notice it.

04-15-2012, 10:17 AM	#16
Sig Sawer Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 38	Another 50 rounds. Seems to be doing the same thing.

04-15-2012, 10:56 AM	#17
oberstlt Member Join Date: May 2006 Location: Richmond, VA Posts: 3,436	SS- I think you continue to rush your shots by not holding the trigger to the rear long enough to give the bullet a chance to leave the barrel. We react unconsciously to the flash, blast and noise of the primer detonation and that snaps our wrists down which accounts for the low group. When the shot breaks, hold the trigger to the rear until the sights come back down on the target. It is only a fraction of a second but it does the job. As to the left group, in my experience that is a result of "too much finger". What I mean by that is in order to gain leverage over the resistance of the trigger spring, we go beyond the "power crease" (first joint) on a double action gun. On a DAO, you only need to position the trigger in the "DIP" joint and leave it there while your finger is on the trigger. If you put it in too far, shots go to the left. If you don't put it in far enough, they drift to the right.

04-15-2012, 12:15 PM	#18
Sig Sawer Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Texas Posts: 38	I did as y'all suggested. I took my time and squeezed the trigger til it broke. Held it back on follow through. I even gave it more time between shots and put the gun down a moment. I think it's the long action of the trigger that's messing me up.

04-15-2012, 02:52 PM	#19
joe b. Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 313	Sig Sawer, First off, I don't want to come across as rude or trying to offend you, but I am beginning to believe you just need more "quality" trigger time and you will improve. ("The way to Carnegie Hall is practice, practice, practice"). Handguns are difficult to master. Comparing the size of your gun to the group it looks like the string is 10-12" vertically and 8-10" horizontally. And you stated previously that you were shooting 21 feet. With a 3" SCCY or Kel-Tec P11 (which does not have a nice forgiving trigger) I would expect to keep most if not all of a magazine in the center ring, maybe a few in the next ring. With a 5" 1911 or my XD.45 they would pattern about the same, but at 25 yards, not feet. I believe the cure is going to be more quality, less quantity, shooting time and maybe some hand and arm strength exercises. Especially to learn to isolate the trigger finger from the rest of the hand muscles when pulling the trigger. Plus supporting the weight of the gun, your arms and holding on target. By all means, if you think there is a problem with the gun, ask an experienced shooter to fire it and see if the problem persists. Trigger problems can be cured, and steps taken to improve it, such as a lower but safe pull weight, overtravel stop, reduce creep, etc. But honestly if there were serious issues with the gun or your shooting, I would not expect to see such a really nice cluster in the center ring. That, then the downward drift still indicates fatigue to me, and possible rushing the rest of your shooting to get a whole box "shot up". Or causing "zone out" from concentrating too hard on what you are doing. So I am going to revise my previous advice. Shoot three shots. Holster or otherwise secure the gun and walk away, maybe sit down a few minutes. Then fire another 3 shot group. Do this 5 times (15rds) and stop. If they are all in the center or first two rings, your shooting is fine, and you are simply trying to shoot too much at one time, and fatigue is taking its toll. Pay ranges are expensive and you have a deadline, and these are not conducive to "quality trigger time". That is the key. Forget quantity. You don't improve by shooting more boxes of ammo, but by shooting more often and quit when it gets tiring, boring, or no fun. Again, no insult or offense intended, just trying to be straight forward, which sadly can be misconstrued when it is not heard in a friendly tone of voice. No one (or at least mighty few) is a born crack shot. I recently tutored a 13 year veteran of Tulsa PD in rifle shooting. He was fine with a handgun, but had almost no experience with a rifle. With a little guidance and a lot of quality trigger time (I gave him unlimited access to my rural property for target practice, a major factor in his improvement) and fun practice at a relaxed pace, spread out over several months, he is now a force to be reckoned with when it comes to his AR 15 carbine. Keep shooting, be safe, enjoy your gun and your 2A rights.

04-15-2012, 03:12 PM	#20
abninftr Regulator Join Date: Jun 2005 Posts: 2,259	Sig, three suggestions: 1. Try doing some dry firing for a while the day before you go to the range. See if there is any improvement. 2. Try doing hand strengthening exercises as I previously suggested. 3. Also, take a different gun, one with a smaller grip and shorter trigger reach to the range and fire it halfway through your range session. See if you have the same problem.