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Old 01-05-2006, 02:15 AM   #11
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.357 SIG vs. 9mm +P+

Well seing you asked... .357 Sig is a marketing ploy but then again most products are. Go to any reloading manual and crunch the numbers. A given volume of powder will push a given mass of lead at a given velocity. Which is why the .357 SIG isnt any more efficient than the .40. The .357 SIG is generally loaded with slower burning powder and gives a great deal of recoil and muzzle blast giving the uninformed shooter the feeling of "More Power" similar to a J frame .357 Magnum shooter when anyone with a chrono can tell you all your getting is more noise and muzzle blast. So why do we use bottlenecks? Well although there is no internal ballistic advantage over a straight case there is an external advantage. By bottlenecking it allows us to use a smaller diameter bullet with a higher ballistic coeeficient than the same weight bullet in a parent case straight walled case. This can be seen by comparing longrange trajectories in say a 150 gr 30/06 and a 150 gr .280. launching at same velocity the smaller bullet will shoot flatter and hit harder at long range. Although this can work out pretty well in rifles, the advantage of a higher ballistic coeeficient is pretty meaningless in typical shortrange handgun applications. Which is basically a way of saying the .357 SIG is for people who think heavy recoil and muzzleblast translates into "More Power" in the projectile traveling down range.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:15 PM   #12
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.357 SIG vs. 9mm +P+

OK, so every local and state police department, along with a slew of federal agencies, that use the .357 SIG has been fooled by hype and muzzle blast. I would argue that, by physical law, more recoil would indeed mean more power in the projectile traveling down range, all else being equal. Once the projectile leaves the barrel I think the powder burning exerts very little recoil momentum to the handgun, so if it kicks more the same-weight bullet is moving quicker.



I wonder when we will figure out those other marketing ploys: the .45 ACP, 9mm Parabellum, .357 Magnum, .44 Magnum, .38 Super, .223....?



And the feeding reliability of all bottle-necked cartridges has been noted, since you are sticking a .35" diameter projectile into a .40" hole, until the bullet is set far into the chamber.
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Old 01-07-2006, 01:56 PM   #13
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.357 SIG vs. 9mm +P+

Couple of observations if I may.



At least one of our folks here works for an agency that prohibits any bullet bigger than 9mm/357. The SIG round is the only real option they have to getting a little more power in a pistol.



Actually, the blast does contribute to recoil. Its one part of the 'ejecta', which means the stuff leaving the gun. The powder gasses weigh roughly what the unburned powder does. They exit the muzzle at 3-5 times the speed of the bullet. Not much momentum, but the energy becomes significant as energy is mass X velocity squared.



With guns that throw light bullets with lots of powder, like magnum rifles, the effect is more noticable. Its also why a 'dragon call' is more effective on them than on things like a .45-70.



I've not run the numbers, but with the .357SIG and the 7.62X25 I think you're getting into that territory with handguns.



Is it _that_ much more 'powerful' than a 9mm +P+? Probably not, but if the user feels it gives them an edge, then they have an edge.





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Pat





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Old 01-07-2006, 03:30 PM   #14
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.357 SIG vs. 9mm +P+

Do a search for actual chronograph results and compare a .357magnum fired in a snubnose to a typical 9mm. Same bullet mass same velocity but way more recoil in the .357. And yes government is succeptable to hype especially considering that many people in decision making positions know nothing about firearms. And something about the powder either it's weight or burn rate has a significant effect on recoil even when the bullets are the same weight and velocity, Ive got a chronograph and haved proved it to myself through actual experimentation.
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Old 01-08-2006, 08:13 AM   #15
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.357 SIG vs. 9mm +P+

Yes, but different guns. Different weights. Different barrel lengths. Different recoil. Sure the total ejecta can have an impact on recoil, but how much once the bullet leaves the barrel and is more than an inch away? If it were a lot, then a cap gun would damn near take your arm off!



By the way, I forgot to add the .40 S&W to my list of hyped up marketing ploys. That one is sure to fade away soon!



(And, originally, this was a question about .357 SIG and 9mm +P+.)
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Old 01-08-2006, 11:11 AM   #16
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.357 SIG vs. 9mm +P+

Hi Guys,



I've been letting the tossed-in comparisons with the .357mag go because there is just more data on the magnum, and on paper at least, it's roughly equivilant to the .357sig. I think we can use it for comparison.



Let's just not lose sight of the original question. :)



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